The Jason Lee Debate

[Quntib Hollox]

Hmm... interesting points raised on both sides.

Next up in the new LTLF debate series: Should women have the right to vote?

Course they should once all their chores are done.

 

[Rockabilly]

Hmm... interesting points raised on both sides.

Next up in the new LTLF debate series: Should women have the right to vote?

They shouldn’t be allowed to commentate on men’s football matches.

 

[Project Zeus]

I agree (although that's a very far fetched example!) But someone having shit hair doesn't fall into that category surely?

I deliberately used an over-the-top example to highlight your logical fallacy.

It's not about this shit hair though, is it? It wasn't about the shit hair as soon as he blacked up.

Again, if some comedian decided to joke about something minor about Baddiel, say his crap singing, but did it dressed up as a caricature of a Jew that wouldn't look out of place in Der Stürmer, it wouldn't be about the singing anymore.

May I suggest that you don't fully appreciate the historic and cultural significance behind blackface, and that you should read up a bit on it. This is a really common misconception I see whenever this topic comes up - it's not simply dressing up as a black person in the way putting a wig on lends to an impersonation of a Scouser.

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[Finding Remo]

I deliberately used an over-the-top example to highlight your logical fallacy.

It's not about this shit hair though, is it? It wasn't about the shit hair as soon as he blacked up.

Again, if some comedian decided to joke about something minor about Baddiel, say his crap singing, but did it dressed up as a caricature of a Jew that wouldn't look out of place in Der Stürmer, it wouldn't be about the singing anymore.

May I suggest that you don't fully appreciate the historic and cultural significance behind blackface, and that you should read up a bit on it. This is a really common misconception I see whenever this topic comes up - it's not simply dressing up as a black person in the way putting a wig on lends to an impersonation of a Scouser.

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Agreed, it's not in my top ten Mastermind topics I'd pick.


These sort of discussions always end up with people ignoring the majority of a post and selectively clipping little phrases out of context in order to make you sound like Bernard Manning at a BNP rally, so I won't comment any further.

 

[Hungry Horace]

How do you reckon Baddiel would find it if the BBC aired primetime comedians relentlessly mocking him with jokes about hooked noses and hoarding gold?

His "apology" is pathetic. As Jason Lee says, why's is taken 25 years?

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While I agree the bullying hasn’t stood the test of time well, this example isn’t right. Jason Lee was a bit shit and did have a distinctive hairstyle which combined made him (wrongly) a target. Those features were facts. I’m not sure Baddiel was ever seen in public hoarding gold in front of an audience of millions on tv.


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[Hungry Horace]

Agreed, it's not in my top ten Mastermind topics I'd pick.


These sort of discussions always end up with people ignoring the majority of a post and selectively clipping little phrases out of context in order to make you sound like Bernard Manning at a BNP rally, so I won't comment any further.

Generally he stuck to his “mother in law” material at these events to mix it up a bit.


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[eyupmeduck]

I think its subjective but as a poc I found it offensive at the time and that hasn't changed in all honesty. I think personally that if the subject of the skit finds it offensive then that is their right, continuing it in the knowledge that it upsets them becomes bullying, doing that in blackface is the racist cherry on the cake. I suppose it goes from unconscious to conscious.

I think though its also a bit crass to diminish Baddiels experience as a jew because he also did something offensive, you just would hope that in the examination of the subject that there would be some introspective thinking about wider issues but what he says about his experience as a jew or the wider history is still an important discussion too.

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[Notcher]

Here's the interview between the pair.

Obviously the line was hugely overstepped with regards to blacking up and for me it almost went into bullying territory.

What I will say is that albeit far too late, Baddiel has at least met him to apologise and fully explain why it happened.

It's an interesting watch and it allows you to make a rounded conclusion or opinion.

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[congo_red_49]

I find it a little odd that this is even being discussed.
Like many things it's in the past and will stay there.
I'm not a person of colour, so don't consider it appropriate for me to declare what they should or shouldn't find racist.

 

[reddog63]

I think the big issue for me is people like Craig David and Jason Lee feel it had affected their lives and careers being the butt of this crass racist humour even if it wasn't intended to offend it did.By the way I remember Jason Lee as a really hard worker who made the most of is talents despite Badiel and Skinner's poor attempts at humour.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

I am a person so I can suffer racist abuse like anyone else. Being in a majority white country it is more unlikely I would get anything.

As for costuming a different colour skin, that act in itself isnt racist but depends on why you are doing it and its intentions.

I never watched Bo Selecta and thought it was racist but I did think it was a bit brutal and same with with the Baddiel clips. If you want society to get to healthy place you should be able to costume a different skin colour and society be able to deduce whether you are taking the piss out of the colour or doing it for aesthetic costume reasons.

So its a moral quandry isnt it? I remember a 10 year old Leeds fan blacking up as El Hadj Diouf because he loved him. You can't call that racist in my view. Its a totally separate thing from minstrel shows which was obvioulsy racist. There is nuance in these things because if there isnt then White Chicks was a an obviously racist movie (which it wasnt).

Society is now in a puritanical phase which isnt all bad and we now want to be kinder, so you can't make things like anymore. I remember Ellis James and Matt Lucas had to apologies for their Steve Cooper skits which I thought was a shame.

Its in the past and thats where it will remain but society needs to also grow up and realise that nuance and intent matters the most out of everything.

 

[lavelleuk]

I've always hated any stuff like this, whether it's about Jason Lee, Luke Chadwick on They Think It's All Over, Family Guy mocking celebrities, I hate watching Roasts too even though people agree to be on there.

Maybe it says more about me than the people involved, but even if you are the most secure person ever having someone mock something specific about you has to affect you to some to degree, having it done without your involvement on national TV by people you have never met who are doing it in a mean spirited way is just horrible

I saw people discussing the Cooper sketch recently by some new Sky program. Even if Cooper if 100% secure, having someone pull faces to "play" him on a national sketch is just horrible and something I really hate

I don't understand the defense of it. You're an athlete paid to do a sport? Well you're fair game. An actor? Yep, you need to have a thick skin.

I hate that once people are in a certain profession or earn a certain amount it is just generally accepted they are fair game to bully.

On a side note - Badiel and Skinner are two of the least funny "comedians" I have seen, but Badiel takes that to a whole other level. How one of the most boring people I have heard talk in my life in classed as a comedian is insane to me

 

[Ashley]

Personally I don't think Baddiel and Skinner intended to be racist with their Jason Lee skits, but I do think that the blackface was incredibly poorly thought out and idiotic, and it should never have taken so long for them to have apologised to Jason for it.

I also think it needs to be said that the other people involved in the show (including the BBC) are somewhat responsible too. Someone should have spoke up and said that the blackface was a really bad idea and is going to be interpreted as being racist (even if that wasn't their intent) before it ever aired. Even back then, you'd have to be an idiot to think blackface was acceptable and its astonishing that it ever got as far as to making it onto TV.

Long story short; I don't think that they are racist, but I do think they are cowardly idiots.

 

[Project Zeus]

I saw people discussing the Cooper sketch recently by some new Sky program. Even if Cooper if 100% secure, having someone pull faces to "play" him on a national sketch is just horrible and something I really hate

Did they really? I didn't see that, but it sounds like incredibly poor taste and completely at odds with the kind of values a corporation like Sky claim to possess.

Cooper would be well within his rights to refuse to do interviews with Sky until they apologise, IMO.

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[congo_red_49]

Did they really? I didn't see that, but it sounds like incredibly poor taste and completely at odds with the kind of values a corporation like Sky claim to possess.

Cooper would be well within his rights to refuse to do interviews with Sky until they apologise, IMO.

I personally think the better approach is to be the bigger person, accept the apology and move on. You catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The blackface thing wasn't even an issue with Fantasy Football when this was first out where I lived, and I can't remember any Forest fans I knew back then calling it out tbh.

In fact, I can't remember anyone ever complaining about it or even talking about it, folk just assumed he was trying to look like Jason Lee, who is obviously black. As a young kid I used to get my mam to put green food dye on me to look like the Incredible Hulk. I just saw it as that.

And I don't believe in retrospectively judging things either. People change, cultures change, and judging the past by today's standards just feels somewhat disingenuous to me.

Was it bullying? Maybe. But that's part of the territory with any high-profile job unfortunately, you need thick skin.

However, it just wasn't funny. In fact the whole show was pretty poor and I remember watching it and thinking "what am I not getting here? this is getting hyped...but it's shit". And I class Baddiel in the same bracket a Lineker, in that they'll both tell people what they want to hear just to forward the agendas they favour. Both are pricks.

 

[Project Zeus]

I personally think the better approach is to be the bigger person, accept the apology and move on. You catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

Yeah, fair enough. As I said I didn't see it, or that Sky already apologised. Never mind.

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[congo_red_49]

Yeah, fair enough. As I said I didn't see it, or that Sky already apologised. Never mind.

I don't believe they ever apologised to Marinakis though.

 

[Haych]

I personally think the better approach is to be the bigger person, accept the apology and move on. You catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

They should probably apologise for it not being funny as well.

 

[congo_red_49]

They should probably apologise for it not being funny as well.

They'd have to apologise to everyone who had the misfortune of watching it then.

 

[Timothy Pope]

I guess that’s the trouble with topical comedy. Making a joke that doesn’t offend someone, somewhere is incredibly difficult.

Maybe comedians should be like Frankie Boyle & not give a f***?

Of course, 30 years from now, FB will be offering out a shit load of apologies.

 

[andover red]

On a side note - Badiel and Skinner are two of the least funny "comedians" I have seen

Baddies yes, but Skinner is one of the funniest people I've ever seen or heard. Not necessarily his scripted routines, but once he starts ad lobbing and going off script he's so quick witted it's unreal. A truly funny and clever guy.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Taking all the political stuff out of it, it is pretty sad how Jason's Prem season has become all bout a f***ing shite football show as well.

His form did go off the rails when B&S started hounding him, but until then he'd scored 7 goals at a time when Cole had barely netted and was well behind him. Lee finished on 8, Cole finished on 11 and Bergkamp finished on 11 too. Roy only got 8 that season as well.

Not too shabby for someone who was the butt of their jokes. Hell, Mark Hughes only got 8 at Chelsea, but Baddiel didn't pick him out for having that "please f***ing shave me off" Brillo pad hair.

 

[Ashley]

Taking all the political stuff out of it, it is pretty sad how Jason's Prem season has become all bout a f***ing shite football show as well.

His form did go off the rails when B&S started hounding him, but until then he'd scored 7 goals at a time when Cole had barely netted and was well behind him. Lee finished on 8, Cole finished on 11 and Bergkamp finished on 11 too. Roy only got 8 that season as well.

Not too shabby for someone who was the butt of their jokes. Hell, Mark Hughes only got 8 at Chelsea, but Baddiel didn't pick him out for having that "please f***ing shave me off" Brillo pad hair.

Well said. He was never as bad as people made him out to be. There were many much, much worse forwards before, at the time of and after Jason Lee's stint in the Premier League.

 

[Raymondo Ponte']

The Dred in Red always gave his all.