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The Jason Lee Debate

DizzyBala

DizzyBala

Jack Armstrong
I'm sure most of you will be aware that the Jason Lee - Baddiel/Skinner stuff has resurfaced recently and I wanted to see what people's views on it now are, particularly those of us that are in our 30s/40s/50s who will have been watching Forest when he was playing and probably Baddiel/Skinner.


I was about 6-7 when Jason Lee was playing for us and I remember the Pineapple song as a kid. But I also remember us singing the Steve Stone song (he's got no hair but we don't care).

Now, the world was very different 25 years ago with the attitudes to racial stereotypes and such. I re-watched the sketches before this and part of me thinks it's a bit like Little Britain was, they used stereotypes for comedic effect and I don't think it's hateful in any way. It does look very dated and ignorant in 2022 and having heard about how it effected Jason personally, it's a really unfortunate that Jason was singled out like that.

The black face part was definitely too far though. A couple of white blokes taking the piss out of a black guy and painting Baddiel's face black to do it.

That said, how many of us today will take the piss out of someone for having a shit hair cut? Whether they are an opposition player or it's one of your mates in the pub or whatever. I don't believe that making fun of someone for something they can't do anything about but for stuff like hair cuts or weight or things like that, how much is actually fair game?

Jason-Lee-MN2S-1.png


I look at that now and to be honest with you, it looked funny to 7 year old me in 95/96 but if he was running around with that today, he'd probably be a football fashion icon. The hair jokes, I think were fair game but the black face, absolutely not.
 
uredsuns

uredsuns

Rice 13
Alot of the shit people get for their previous misdemeanours is dependant on who they are. I can think of several ‘celebs’ who have been done for drink driving and still get hounded by the press today for it still while other are deemed a while later as national treasures. So dont think this trying right the wrongs is anything but a smoke screen for the people to chastise others.


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Otis Redding

Otis Redding

Try A Little Tenderness
The Black & White Ministrel Show (a staple of Saturday night light entertainment on the BBC in the '60s/early-70s) had been rightly taken off-air long, long before Baddiel was shamelessly blacking-up, which makes me wonder how the BBC let him get away with it.

I believe that Skinner apologised to Jason for his part some time ago, but Baddiel never had the opportunity, or because of some other such pathetic excuse.
 
W

witneyred

Viv Anderson
Whatever anyone says oh that was in the past it was of the time regardless of Baddiel been black faced and hypocritical ..it was bullying then and is now I remember it was just relentless.
 
Finding Remo

Finding Remo

The artist formerly known as Forest_1865
Me personally I never had a problem with it as it wasn't done for racism but rather just taking the piss. It was only because Jason Lee got upset about it they kept it up.

Black face maybe too far but he was taking the piss out of the bloke (imitating him) not suggesting his skin colour was an issue (and I don't think JL claimed racism from memory). If he'd done it without the black face it wouldn't have made sense.

But like you say nowadays that hair would be considered normal (in fact didn't Zaha have the same hair the other day?) so it wouldn't work anyway.
 
Project Zeus

Project Zeus

Steve Chettle
Finding Remo said:
Me personally I never had a problem with it as it wasn't done for racism but rather just taking the piss. It was only because Jason Lee got upset about it they kept it up.
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How do you reckon Baddiel would find it if the BBC aired primetime comedians relentlessly mocking him with jokes about hooked noses and hoarding gold?

His "apology" is pathetic. As Jason Lee says, why's is taken 25 years?

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Finding Remo

Finding Remo

The artist formerly known as Forest_1865
Harvey said:
Why it was done is completely irrelevant
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It was a comedy show though. They took the piss out of everyone, not like it was the anti-JL show. You have the choice whether you laugh or get offended but the fact you have the choice is what's important.
 
Project Zeus

Project Zeus

Steve Chettle
Finding Remo said:
It was a comedy show though. They took the piss out of everyone, not like it was the anti-JL show. You have the choice whether you laugh or get offended but the fact you have the choice is what's important.
Click to expand...
That's such a weak excuse though. It's the Richard Keys "it was just banter" defence.

Some things aren't acceptable to joke about. If I did a stand up show to a load of parents whose children had just died and did nothing but jokes about dead children, I'd quite rightly get my eyes blackened.

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Statto

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
Harvey said:
Taking the piss is one thing. Doing something racist, whether you intended to or not, is quite another.
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I guess the question is whether it was racist though? I don't think it is necessarily clear cut that it was. They were ripping on him because he had his hair in a pineapple shape, and because he missed a lot. Now I suppose that's not particularly fair either but that is the point of that type of comedy to an extent. I suppose black people predominantly do have dreadlocks and thus you probably wouldn't really find a white guy with his dreads in a pineapple but actually that was all his choice. And he won't be the first or last football player to be ripped on for being shit. Blacking their face is a different question but surely that would be seen as part of the costume and if they hadn't it'd look less like Jason Lee like if you're popping a long blonde wig on as part of dressing up. I see that it's close to the line of decency whichever side it's ultimately on, but from recollection, I don't think they actually ripped on Lee specifically because of his race, which would almost certainly be wrong.

Should they rip on him for having shit hair and being crap at football? Probably not but that was the point of the show wasn't it really? They ripped on Gary Neville a lot too.

A fair amount of comedy is close to or past the lines of decency. Some of what Mr Bean did is a bit off. And of course Fawlty Towers, not just the Germans episode. In South Park they had a character called Token Black, though they have recently retconned that and said his name's always been Tolkein and everyone just said it wrong, which I guess is a comedic plot in itself. And they constantly rip on characters simply for being Jewish. SBC is the same with Jews and probably gets away with it more because he's Jewish himself. (As is Baddiel, ironically)

Do I think it's right? Probably not. I didn't like it at the time but then that is because Lee was our player and they were ripping him, it was affecting his confidence, and he was trying his best for the club. But I do think there are more offensive things out there.
 
Finding Remo

Finding Remo

The artist formerly known as Forest_1865
In the same sketch, Skinner took off Frank Clark, complete with grey hair (ageist), moustache (hair again) and Geordie accent (racist?) But no-one even contemplates FC being offended in the slightest.

If JL was white would the sketch have been acceptable? Some white people have shit hair as well (just as some black people have good hair).

As I said from memory, JL never suggested racism as the cause of his offence. He just thought he was special and immune from people ripping the piss out of him. And with football culture the way it was then (players had the piss taken out of them for wearing gloves for example) anyone who thought they were superior was quickly brought down to Earth. It's only when you try to apply the modern social media offended on other's behalf it seems harsh/unacceptable but there was never malicious intent when it was done unlike now.
 
Finding Remo

Finding Remo

The artist formerly known as Forest_1865
Project Zeus said:
That's such a weak excuse though. It's the Richard Keys "it was just banter" defence.

Some things aren't acceptable to joke about. If I did a stand up show to a load of parents whose children had just died and did nothing but jokes about dead children, I'd quite rightly get my eyes blackened.

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Click to expand...
I agree (although that's a very far fetched example!) But someone having shit hair doesn't fall into that category surely?
 
Harvey

Harvey

Chrissy Cohen
Anyway I'm ducking out of this one. I think I've made my views on the subject clear enough.

Feel free to debate something that isn't actually a debate though.
 
Farmer Jack

Farmer Jack

Stuart Pearce
I saw JL at The Green Man pub before the play off final laughing when the "pineapple" chants started, make of that what you will.
 
mister

mister

First Team Squad
Hmm... interesting points raised on both sides.

Next up in the new LTLF debate series: Should women have the right to vote?
 
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