Standard of Referees

[Flaggers]

The problem with offside is VAR.

The rule is to stop goal hanging first and foremost and is by nature somewhat subjective. 'Is the attacker gaining an advantage by being beyond the last defender?' This is a subjective view of the official with the flag and ostensibly comes down to 'do I reckon, to all intents and purposes, that he's level or behind the defender?' If yes, onside, if no offside, benefit of the doubt to the attacker.

VAR has taken something seemingly objective but intrinsically subjective, and made it categorically objective down to the millimetres of toes and armpits thus creating the stupidity we have now of players being deemed offside despite very clearly not gaining any advantage over the defender. The powers that be want offside to be objective, but deep down it was never meant to work the way it's now treated in the modern game because it couldn't. Now that it can I think most agree that it shouldn't. Sadly, that doesn't include the powers that be.

This is exactly the case.
A system which can subjectively say that Milenkovic was offside for that goal against Southampton, also wants to objectively say that the ball joint of the attacker's shoulder was goal-side of the defender's kneecap - it's an absolute nonesense.

The insurmountible problem with forensic offside decisions, however, is NOT "which part of the attacker do we judge, and which part of the defender?"

It DOESN'T MATTER which parts of which player is used to make the decision.

The problem, regardless of bodyparts, daylight gaps etc will ALWAYS be the edge cases.

The cases of overlap.
The cases where there _might_ be daylight between the attacker's shin and the defender's boot (and you can guarantee that the variable clouds at Old Trafford and Anfield will produce or shroud "daylight" when circumstances require.

The cases where the inherent inaccuracy of Semi-Automated Offside (because, believe it or not, people, it's inaccurate. It's good, it's better than the existing stupid lines nonesense that Stockley Park produced, but in EVERY system there is a plus-or-minus.)

In a semi-sutomated offside decision the inaccuracy is small, maybe 2-3 centimeters....Welcome to the edge case where the attacker's knee is apparently 2-3 centimeters beyond the defender's elbow , in a system with 2-3 centimeters of absolute uncertainty.

If you are going to use forensic-style analysis, you will ALWAYS have edge cases.
There is no way round that.
It's the edge cases that we're angered by now.
It will be the edge cases that we're arguing about in 10 years' time.

The only way to reduce the number of edge cases is to reduce the number of times the system is employed.

The solution is to check only when a coach/manager uses one of his quantity-limited challenges (rather like in tennis, cricket).

VAR in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem is the completely botched and incompetent implementation of VAR, compounded by the absolute muppets operating it.

 

[Robertson]

I’m like a broken record on this but a lot of cases that VAR spends ages on seem to be direct from freekicks, where it would be a lot simpler if the lino just raised his flag if ANYONE is in an offside position when the ball is kicked. If you aren’t seeking to gain advantage from standing in the opposition’s box, what the hell are you doing there?

 

[Flaggers]

I’m like a broken record on this but a lot of cases that VAR spends ages on seem to be direct from freekicks, where it would be a lot simpler if the lino just raised his flag if ANYONE is in an offside position when the ball is kicked. If you aren’t seeking to gain advantage from standing in the opposition’s box, what the hell are you doing there?

And, amusingly, this is the situation from which Semi-Automated-Offside produced the longest VAR delay on record, and, in another case, failed. It isn't smart enough to deal with a large number of players in the box.

Great.

As you say - anyone in the goal area at a direct free-kick is interfering. If you're goalside of the defender when the ball is kicked, absolutely get the flag up.

 

[Strummer]

I am just off to the Forum Control Panel to change @Flaggers username to „Ranty McRantface“.

 

[PynchonForest]

So, how do we fix VAR? It isn't going away. Every single major league uses it. I think complaining about the accuracy it utilizes to define thresholds isn't apt, as this is the entire point behind using technology, to see things the human eye cannot. As I have stated numerous times before, I am not a fan of it, but it will not go away. So, given that it is here to stay, how does accepting it change?

 

[Captain Sinister]

So, how do we fix VAR? It isn't going away. Every single major league uses it. I think complaining about the accuracy it utilizes to define thresholds isn't apt, as this is the entire point behind using technology, to see things the human eye cannot. As I have stated numerous times before, I am not a fan of it, but it will not go away. So, given that it is here to stay, how does accepting it change?

You are correct that VAR is not going to go away.
Even if a football management group said they would remove it, the media companies would not let them.
VAR is for the armchair fans only.
It ****s up the matchday experience for the spectators at the ground.
It has emasculated the on-field officials.
And new rules are being formulated to accommodate VAR.
I am pretty sure that the amount of time added on is dictated by the media comapnies - can't mess up their schedules by allowing proper amounts of time aadded on.
We just have to accept that the fan in the stadium contributes relatively little financially in terms of the ticket price part of clubs' total revenue, and therefore there is no consideration given to their wishes.
Having conducted a straw poll at games I attend, I have yet to find more than 1% of people who think VAR is a positive influence on the game.

 

[PynchonForest]

You are correct that VAR is not going to go away.
Even if a football management group said they would remove it, the media companies would not let them.
VAR is for the armchair fans only.
It ****s up the matchday experience for the spectators at the ground.
It has emasculated the on-field officials.
And new rules are being formulated to accommodate VAR.
I am pretty sure that the amount of time added on is dictated by the media comapnies - can't mess up their schedules by allowing proper amounts of time aadded on.
We just have to accept that the fan in the stadium contributes relatively little financially in terms of the ticket price part of clubs' total revenue, and therefore there is no consideration given to their wishes.
Having conducted a straw poll at games I attend, I have yet to find more than 1% of people who think VAR is a positive influence on the game.

But don't you think, in a sense, that fans decrying refereeing decisions (in all sports), pre-VAR, had a big hand in empowering sporting leagues to implement it? I think this is, ultimately, why it appeared in the first place.

 

[Captain Sinister]

But don't you think, in a sense, that fans decrying refereeing decisions (in all sports), pre-VAR, had a big hand in empowering sporting leagues to implement it? I think this is, ultimately, why it appeared in the first place.

No.
I don't recall the fans actually wasting much time on talking about the referee after a game.
Indeed, I don't think many fans would have familiarised themselves as to the ref's name.
Post match the discussion among fans was generally about their teams performance, and the performance of individual players.

 

[PynchonForest]

No.
I don't recall the fans actually wasting much time on talking about the referee after a game.
Indeed, I don't think many fans would have familiarised themselves as to the ref's name.
Post match the discussion among fans was generally about their teams performance, and the performance of individual players.

I dunno. I've been listening to people shit on referees for a lot longer than I've been one.

 

[uredsuns]

So, how do we fix VAR? It isn't going away. Every single major league uses it. I think complaining about the accuracy it utilizes to define thresholds isn't apt, as this is the entire point behind using technology, to see things the human eye cannot. As I have stated numerous times before, I am not a fan of it, but it will not go away. So, given that it is here to stay, how does accepting it change?

We could start by not losing 5 minutes to carry out a VAR review, if it takes that long to decide then it isn't a clear and obvious error from the match official is it?

 

[Erik]

So, how do we fix VAR? It isn't going away. Every single major league uses it. I think complaining about the accuracy it utilizes to define thresholds isn't apt, as this is the entire point behind using technology, to see things the human eye cannot. As I have stated numerous times before, I am not a fan of it, but it will not go away. So, given that it is here to stay, how does accepting it change?

Do away with this 'phase' or 'interfering with play' bollocks and make it a simple 'anyone in an offside position and it's offside'.

Get the linesman as he used to be called, or the referees assistant as they're called now to do his bloody job and stick his flag up when he thinks there is an offside.

Build a margin of error by use of a band into VAR to allow for human actions. Just like cricket has an 'umpires call'. Anything in that band is as the linesman called it.

There will still be marginal decisions but you then say if it takes more than 30 seconds to decide then it's 'Linesmans call'.

Is that too complicated?

 

[GOBIAS]

So, how do we fix VAR? It isn't going away. Every single major league uses it. I think complaining about the accuracy it utilizes to define thresholds isn't apt, as this is the entire point behind using technology, to see things the human eye cannot. As I have stated numerous times before, I am not a fan of it, but it will not go away. So, given that it is here to stay, how does accepting it change?

I think it should be in the background and captains / managers get x amount of appeals.

The offside thing should just be viewed as the goal is celebrated and if they look about level they are level. Basically if they can’t tell they are definitively offside then they are on.

They only really need to shape up the glaring errors. Most are subjective things anyway and even after 50 replays form 20 angles people will still disagree.

 

[Robertson]

I’m just about old enough to remember when they brought in the ‘interfering with play’ caveat to offside and I’m sure it was sold as giving the officials some leeway after a few edge cases where a winger was sat on his backside near the touchline, or running back towards being onside having not touched the ball etc. Over the years it seems like what’s considered interfering with play has gradually become eroded to the extent that you could literally have a player stood on the penalty spot for 90 minutes and as long he’s not offside upon actually receiving the ball, he’s unlikely to be penalised.

Going back to the situation where if you’re in an offside position you’re offside barring exceptional circumstances would make things a lot more straightforward for linos and VAR alike.

 

[Bing Crosby's Head]

Get the linesman as he used to be called, or the referees assistant as they're called now to do his bloody job and stick his flag up when he thinks there is an offside.

Trouble with that is if he sticks his flag up and is wrong then it can't be corrected by var as play will stop.

Agree with the rest of it though.

 

[PynchonForest]

Do away with this 'phase' or 'interfering with play' bollocks and make it a simple 'anyone in an offside position and it's offside'.

Get the linesman as he used to be called, or the referees assistant as they're called now to do his bloody job and stick his flag up when he thinks there is an offside.

Build a margin of error by use of a band into VAR to allow for human actions. Just like cricket has an 'umpires call'. Anything in that band is as the linesman called it.

There will still be marginal decisions but you then say if it takes more than 30 seconds to decide then it's 'Linesmans call'.

Is that too complicated?

It isn't, but you are looking in the rear view mirror. VAR has an influence on how the officials are utilized, and rewinding things to 20 years ago or whenever will not happen.

 

[PynchonForest]

I think it should be in the background and captains / managers get x amount of appeals.

The offside thing should just be viewed as the goal is celebrated and if they look about level they are level. Basically if they can’t tell they are definitively offside then they are on.

They only really need to shape up the glaring errors. Most are subjective things anyway and even after 50 replays form 20 angles people will still disagree.

This was how I thought VAR should have been implemented. When they first started talking about it I thought it key that the clubs should have control on when it should be implemented. Three calls a game for each side. If you want to use them all in the first 15 minutes, fine. Anything after that and too bad.

 

[PynchonForest]

I’m just about old enough to remember when they brought in the ‘interfering with play’ caveat to offside and I’m sure it was sold as giving the officials some leeway after a few edge cases where a winger was sat on his backside near the touchline, or running back towards being onside having not touched the ball etc. Over the years it seems like what’s considered interfering with play has gradually become eroded to the extent that you could literally have a player stood on the penalty spot for 90 minutes and as long he’s not offside upon actually receiving the ball, he’s unlikely to be penalised.

Going back to the situation where if you’re in an offside position you’re offside barring exceptional circumstances would make things a lot more straightforward for linos and VAR alike.

True, to an extent. But as soon as you throw in a caveat like "exceptional circumstances" you are opening the door for interpretation.

 

[Redofheaven2]

Trouble with that is if he sticks his flag up and is wrong then it can't be corrected by var as play will stop.

Agree with the rest of it though.

I get that so why do they sometimes stick it up? Anyone know the decision making process on when to flag? Happened a couple of times with Awoniyi v Spurs last year - almost on half way but flag went straight up.

 

[valspoodle]

If they would let me sort out VAR I'd do a good job. Away with all the "you can't do this or that" to "if it's wrong, fix it".

Away with all the ref is always right unless he's wrong, instead"tell the ref he's got it wrong and sort it". Like the Boly sending off for winning the ball. But note handball.

Change the off side to clear air between the defender and attacker makes it offside.

Handball. Leave it to the ref, if he deems it is deliberate, it's handball. No VAR, no argument, the ref's word is final. None of this crazy unnatural position, when the arm is attached to the shoulder it's in a natural position.

That sort of thing.

 

[GOBIAS]

This was how I thought VAR should have been implemented. When they first started talking about it I thought it key that the clubs should have control on when it should be implemented. Three calls a game for each side. If you want to use them all in the first 15 minutes, fine. Anything after that and too bad.

How many times a season (before VAR) were we incensed about a decision? You’d get the usual disagreement over a penalty or red card but that is never going to change. But a real glaring error, like when Roofe handballed on the goal line at Leeds for example? These shockers happen a handful of times a season. Even if it was one every other match the 3 appeals would more than cover it. Most of the real shockers a lot of the fans and definitely the players know straight away and an appeal can be put in.

Offside you have a feeling usually and can tell on a replay from the side angle with the shot briefly paused as the ball is played. I don’t think most fans or players want the microscopic analysis of offside we see and I guess most would be happy for the VAR official to quickly view that angle a couple of times and decide if it looks level.

At least this takes away as much subjectivity as possible. The decision is subjective but now you have other layers of subjectivity added in. Which incidents are we getting involved with and who decides. What is clear and obvious to one man isn’t to another. We should remove subjectivity not add layers of it!!

VAR is a good thing, it helps the refs and stops glaring errors. Or it should do. It has added issues to games and to officials and causes so much frustration.

 

[Erik]

It isn't, but you are looking in the rear view mirror. VAR has an influence on how the officials are utilized, and rewinding things to 20 years ago or whenever will not happen.

You asked how we fix VAR.

That's a way of doing it.

Of course, the best way to fix VAR would be to do away with completely but there are too many vested interests in keeping it.

VAR should not be having an influence. It should be a tool used by officials only.

 

[Robertson]

True, to an extent. But as soon as you throw in a caveat like "exceptional circumstances" you are opening the door for interpretation.

Yeah - agreed. I wouldn’t use those exact words, it’d be more like a (fairly short) list of specific circumstances in which a player in an offside position shouldn’t be flagged (or subsequently VARed).

In truth though I think I’m swimming against the tide here .

That said, I think “if you’re in an offside position direct from a freekick, you’re offside” ought to be fairly easy to implement and would cut out a lot of this NFL-style blocking and argy-bargy that Arsenal (and others) are so fond of.

 

[Master Yates]

Yeah - agreed. I wouldn’t use those exact words, it’d be more like a (fairly short) list of specific circumstances in which a player in an offside position shouldn’t be flagged (or subsequently VARed).

In truth though I think I’m swimming against the tide here .

That said, I think “if you’re in an offside position direct from a freekick, you’re offside” ought to be fairly easy to implement and would cut out a lot of this NFL-style blocking and argy-bargy that Arsenal (and others) are so fond of.

You could just say anyone in the penalty box is always interfering with play. Might get the odd weird one where a player is down injured on the side of the box or something but it’s clear and definite and would be less subjective.

I actually think a lot of the problems caused by VAR are an obsession with thinking everyone wants to see “more goals”.

Goals are great, when they are scored in game. I don’t see anyone watching clips of the “hundred greatest penalties given due to ridiculous VAR decisions”.

The UCL semi finals were two cracking ties between two great teams full of talented players. The worse thing about them was VAR insisting on being the centre of attention.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Statto]

You could just say anyone in the penalty box is always interfering with play. Might get the odd weird one where a player is down injured on the side of the box or something but it’s clear and definite and would be less subjective.

I actually think a lot of the problems caused by VAR are an obsession with thinking everyone wants to see “more goals”.

Goals are great, when they are scored in game. I don’t see anyone watching clips of the “hundred greatest penalties given due to ridiculous VAR decisions”.

The UCL semi finals were two cracking ties between two great teams full of talented players. The worse thing about them was VAR insisting on being the centre of attention.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If a player is occupying the defence they are / should be in play. This would include things like on the ball, available to receive a pass, attracting attention of being marked, basically in the box would pretty much always count, running away from an offside position probably not.

In your case the injured player presumably wouldn't count as in play when they are down, but unless play is stopped to deal with the injury, as soon as they get up and are back in the game, they would count and would be offside as soon as their team next plays the ball forwards,

 

[Lee]

We fix VAR by having competent and fully trained people to use it.

I fully understand Referees making mistakes but we now have the tools to make it far easier. The competency of referees should have gone to new heights and it hasn't. Dogshit referees still propelled as "elite"