Why didn't Clough's Forest produce a Guardiola?

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

I'm not talking about a deep-lying playmaker, but Pep the manager who is almost like a disciple of Johan Cruyff in the way he goes about management and was clearly hugely influenced and inspired by being a player under him, in the Dream Team era:
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...diola-exclusive-interview-johan-cruyff-unique

Nigel Clough talks about Brian's ways clearly and eloquently here, but how come the simple but brilliant methods have not really been copied by himself or other ex Forest players particularly closely, and not been implemented in a 'new' but Clough-esque Forest?:

I know Forest and Nottingham are not as 'big' as Barcelona the team or city, but didn't Brian set the blueprint to follow to at least ensure similarly entertaining football should have been a given on Trentside since his retirement, and if (as Pep did) improving on the trophy haul (more than 2 European Cups is unlikely for a start!) is not realistic then surely being a top flight team that can give anyone a good game on our day and treats cup competitions as something to aspire to go far in should/could have been more achievable if somebody had been devoted to following the ways they learned under his guidance in their playing days?

Now Forest, despite the admirable efforts of PM so far, are just another club in many ways. But Barcelona have used Cruyff's inspiration much better, and it's largely due to an ex-player going 'Back to the Future' in essence (with some adjustments of course). I know Pep has left Barcelona now of course but you know what I mean!

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

I guess some could mention Paul Hart and maybe that's not a bad call, but I was thinking of someone from slightly later if anything.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

And Frank Clark must have been influenced somewhat, and his team was initially not so far removed (but lots of the players were also Clough players). But it didn't last long under him and maybe his ideas weren't exactly moulded on Cloughie's as such.

 

[Strummer]

Martin O'Neill is outside, jumping up and down, and reminding Patrick Viera how many European Cup winners-medals he has.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Martin O'Neill is outside, jumping up and down, and reminding Patrick Viera how many European Cup winners-medals he has.

He's done great (and that was typically witty of him in a way Clough might've been proud of!) but I don't think his teams were asked to play in a carbon copy way, being more direct for a start (I know maybe Brian became more idealistic in later years, but it was still very much a matter of 'finding a red shirt' at every opportunity and not giving the ball away or playing a lot of aerial balls in the European Cup and League Championship era I think wasn't it (but perhaps I was thinking of later years like I said). I don't know if his teams would be recognisable as being inspired by Clough would they? And he doesn't talk of Clough quite so much in the terms Pep points to Cruyff I'd say.

And he turned down Forest multiple times of course lol! So didn't get the chance to implement anything, Clough-esque or not, on Trentside.

 

[sedgred]

The huge difference I think was Cloughies strength was built on using the best of his players ability within the team structure and his almost supernatural powers to motivate players.

Peps strength seems to be the pattern and method he wants from his team, picking the players to suit the style he wants, he is able to do this because he started at the top, using top players.

Just my observation of the differing styles. Both absolute gifts to the game, but Clough could not be imitated.

 

[Rzar]

The huge difference I think was Cloughies strength was built on using the best of his players ability within the team structure and his almost supernatural powers to motivate players.

Peps strength seems to be the pattern and method he wants from his team, picking the players to suit the style he wants, he is able to do this because he started at the top, using top players.

Just my observation of the differing styles. Both absolute gifts to the game, but Clough could not be imitated.

Clough has great charisma and man management skills which can't be matched.

You can try and reproduce a Pep style, but he got the majority of the way he likes to play from somebody like Bielsa, who has disciples all over the place.

Both are special but it's not possible to replicate Clough's managerial style.

It is an interesting point, though. Even somebody like Alex Ferguson has tonnes of disciples all over the place. Although, Wenger doesn't seem to have many.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

The huge difference I think was Cloughies strength was built on using the best of his players ability within the team structure and his almost supernatural powers to motivate players.

Peps strength seems to be the pattern and method he wants from his team, picking the players to suit the style he wants, he is able to do this because he started at the top, using top players.

Just my observation of the differing styles. Both absolute gifts to the game, but Clough could not be imitated.

Nice input Sedge.

I think if there's something Guardiola has in common with Clough (and of course Cruyff) it is teaching the young players how to play and having a clear idea about that (Nigel says on the video that all the youth teams played the same way, and that everyone knew how Forest would play). Maybe he is more proactive in that and uses more tactical instructions but I think he has a clear ethos and that is what I'm thinking nobody has really copied at Forest (it wasn't really something Clark needed to do anyway as his job was a continuity job, and Pep took over at Barcelona several years after Cruyff had left so it was a case of returning to former principles in a lot of ways I think - wheras some people say the past is the past maybe this Barcelona example shows going back to it and taking inspiration from what worked in the past can pay huge dividends).

I'm not suggesting trying to replace Montanier anyway lol at this point, but more asking why none of Clough's ex-Forest players became so devoted to his ways and the style of the team they played in so as to want to come back to Forest and start things going in a very similar way. Would a Steve Hodge (no managerial experience of course) do so if he had ever taken the job (without said experience that's not very likely, although Pep worked his way through the ranks at Barca rather than making his name elsewhere as a Coach of course), based on what he says on Radio Nottingham for example do we think?

 

[Senior Flange Technician]

When "Pep" has taken two teams from the 2nd division to champions and then European cup winners I'll think he's a great manager. He's also been able to have some of the best players in the world at his disposal, Clough had nothing before he bought the funds in to buy by winning. Alas, and to answer your original question, the game has moved on, the simple tactics are easily countered but it was his man management that made Clough, you don't learn that.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

When "Pep" has taken two teams from the 2nd division to champions and then European cup winners I'll think he's a great manager. He's also been able to have some of the best players in the world at his disposal, Clough had nothing before he bought the funds in to buy by winning. Alas, and to answer your original question, the game has moved on, the simple tactics are easily countered but it was his man management that made Clough, you don't learn that.

Hmm, yeah I wasn't trying to compare the achievments of Pep and Clough mate - sorry if I wasn't clear - I had meant Pep copied Cruyff and was inspired by him in many ways, and no Forest player has tried to do the same with Clough to the same degree which is interesting given how successful he was and how the style was so lauded by fans and the media alike too.

I don't agree the game has moved on so that the 'pass to your own team mate with the best possible ball' principle can't be hugely beneficial to be honest and I think it's a matter of quality football that Forest haven't seen that much of in recent times. A lot of teams have become more 'pure' in their style of play (which is what Forest were, but yes the methods were simple) but Forest have lost the identity they had I feel. If Pep's teams provide an example it is exactly in how passing the ball around in a cohesive way can do so much for a team I think. Of course Montanier now doesn't have the players to turn Forest into Barcelona, or indeed replicate a Clough team, but it's not like other managers weren't more tactical in Clough's time compared to himself I think. Good point about man management of course though, but partly it was also team management and inserting the 'way to play' into all the players heads I think (along with the strokes of genius with individuals like turning Robertson into such a great player).

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

I suppose what I mean too though, is that copying and following Clough's footballing principles closely would not preclude implementing a slightly more tactical approach and being more modern in terms of scouting opposition etc if that was deemed necessary in a way he didn't deem it.

I suppose at a certain point enough differences (and the football becoming too 'planned' and regimented indeed) would mean it's not very similar at all, but on the other hand I don't think Pep's Tiki Taka was exactly how Cruyff's Dream Team played either but it's just that he is following and being inspired by the same basic ideas.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Like Pep himself says in the link, the only reason he became Barcelona manager and then created the team he did, was because of his experiences under Cruyff as young player in the 90's. That's what I'm getting at really - we haven't seen a retro Forest inspired by one of Clough's old boys as manager, due to him being so enamoured with how the team used to play when he was in it. Seeing that article just got me thinking about that and why it hasn't happened really.

I think saying we'll never have another Brian Clough is spot on, but I could see that the team could benefit from someone at the helm equally dedicated to his 'ways' (I'm thinking more about the way the team plays rather than copying his personality just as Pep is not a clone of Cruyff) as Pep is to Cruyff's.

 

[Strummer]

Pep can spout off all he likes, but Johan Cruijff himself often said that everything he learned in football, he learned from Rinus Michels, who, as coach of Ajax and latterly the Netherlands, invented the concept of "Total Football", without which Johan wouldn't have found himself and Pep wouldn't have had his Manager.

I often think the 70s was a cracking time to be a football fan.

Dutch total football? The magnificent Bayern team of Müller and Beckebauer?

Mr. Clough and his Forest side?

Yes please.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Pep can spout off all he likes, but Johan Cruijff himself often said that everything he learned in football, he learned from Rinus Michels, who, as coach of Ajax and latterly the Netherlands, invented the concept of "Total Football", without which Johan wouldn't have found himself and Pep wouldn't have had his Manager.

I often think the 70s was a cracking time to be a football fan.

Dutch total football? The magnificent Bayern team of Müller and Beckebauer?

Mr. Clough and his Forest side?

Yes please.

Yeah, true - Cruyff himself was influenced by his own managers and especially Michels and the way the Dutch played in 1974. Although he was always interested in and trying to influence the way the team played I think - Pep talks about that re: an 18 year old Cruyff.

Clough's Forest was arguably more of an original creation (but the principles of passing the ball on the floor weren't new to Forest at least). But again, I'm not so much comparing Pep to Clough but the Pep/Cruyff link to an absent Clough/Forest player link in terms of creating a new generation based on an old one if you like.

 

[sedgred]

Pep can spout off all he likes, but Johan Cruijff himself often said that everything he learned in football, he learned from Rinus Michels, who, as coach of Ajax and latterly the Netherlands, invented the concept of "Total Football", without which Johan wouldn't have found himself and Pep wouldn't have had his Manager.

I often think the 70s was a cracking time to be a football fan.

Dutch total football? The magnificent Bayern team of Müller and Beckebauer?

Mr. Clough and his Forest side?

Yes please.

Forest v Ajax European Cup semi final, Rudi Krol v Trevor Francis when Francis was at the peak of his powers, fortunate to have been the right age.

 

[Erik]

It must be very difficult to recreate genius when you have been subjected to it first hand for a sustained period.

How many pupils of Michelangelo* came even close to recreating what he could do?

*Not comparing Michelangelo to Clough, couldn't get close.

 

[Strummer]

It must be very difficult to recreate genius when you have been subjected to it first hand for a sustained period.

How many pupils of Michelangelo* came even close to recreating what he could do?

*Not comparing Michelangelo to Clough, couldn't get close.

Exactly. It took Michelangelo seven years to paint just the ceiling of the Cistene Chapel.

As Mr. Clough himself said "they say Rome wasn't built in a day, but I wasn't on that particular job".

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

It must be very difficult to recreate genius when you have been subjected to it first hand for a sustained period.

How many pupils of Michelangelo* came even close to recreating what he could do?

*Not comparing Michelangelo to Clough, couldn't get close.

This is true surely yeah (and speaks well for Guardiola replicating Cruyff even if has been said he was at a big club and has only been at big clubs since and did follow a successful Rijkaard....although he revived the team from a bit of a dip and sometimes pressure is higher at big clubs)

But I suppose I'm thinking more of someone deciding "Right, I'm going to do it the same way as Brian pretty much - we'll play like this and I'll stress the importance of keeping the ball on the floor, and to an extent we'll always try to play our own game" etc etc. Not whether someone gets close to being equally successful, but more whether someone would just decide to get the team playing in a very similar way (even extending it to not arguing with refs and stuff like that too).

 

[Ravi]

Good thread Kjetil.

Firstly, it's important to set aside one of the myths about Clough - some of which he himself propagated. The idea that he wasn't skilled or interested in tactics is not true. Clough and Taylor apparently spent hours and hours together discussing tactics and football. Robbo has said the forwards were asked to drop deep in order to find space between the lines. Their sweeper system at Derby was innovative for the time, and the possession based game they developed at Forest was key in conquering Europe. The five man midfield in the final against Hamburg was another fine example. Clough understood what he was doing even if he only communicated it to the players in simple terms. He was also perfectly complemented by Taylor's uncanny ability to spot players

Clough's excellent man management was his main attribute, and it relied on his charisma, intuition and instinct about how to get the best out of players. He did very little by the book. It's very hard to teach that kind of leadership, and managers who are so dominating don't tend to make good mentors.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Good thread Kjetil.

Firstly, it's important to set aside one of the myths about Clough - some of which he himself propagated. The idea that he wasn't skilled or interested in tactics is not true. Clough and Taylor apparently spent hours and hours together discussing tactics and football. Robbo has said the forwards were asked to drop deep in order to find space between the lines. Their sweeper system at Derby was innovative for the time, and the possession based game they developed at Forest was key in conquering Europe. The five man midfield in the final against Hamburg was another fine example. Clough understood what he was doing even if he only communicated it to the players in simple terms. He was also perfectly complemented by Taylor's uncanny ability to spot players

Clough's excellent man management was his main attribute, and it relied on his charisma, intuition and instinct about how to get the best out of players. He did very little by the book. It's very hard to teach that kind of leadership, and managers who are so dominating don't tend to make good mentors.

Thanks for the input and compliment Ravi (and thanks to everyone who has contributed an opinion).

Yes, that's a fair point I think - he was far from someone with zero football intelligence that only relied on picking his team and letting them get on with it I suppose. I think on the other hand there's a fair bit of truth in what Nigel said (and he should know for the period he was there anyway) in terms of concentrating on our own game moreso than the oppositions (not necessarily ignoring the opposition I suppose but not very likely compleely changing our formation and style of play to counter it).

He cites himself his observations (or his and Taylor's observations) about Cologne and the fact they might try and sit on their away goals lead in the 1979 European Cup tie doesn't he. And yeah, I read not long ago things like instructions to the defenders to push up in certain home games (Forest were always generally more geared to counter attack than Barcelona I suppose with less in the way of extreme pressing, but that shows an idea about condensing space on the home pitch to help dominate the ball I suppose) and switching Forest's shape between more of a 4-3-3 (with Robertson left higher up on the left with less defensive responsibility than O'Neill, so not a proper symmetrical 4-3-3) and a 4-4-2. In later years in some games he played 5 in midfield to help with retaining the ball in certain games didn't he (different to the Hamburg game which was more of a containment job I suppose, but yeah he knew he was without key players like Francis in that one didn't he and I suppose wanted to retrict the Germans....and Keegan!).

Good info re: Robbo saying about dropping deep to find space (I'd read him talking of variations in how high up and 'free' he was asked to play like I say but not that although it fits in with what I was saying about not pressing a lot high up as a team, and being able to counter attack from deep a lot). I suppose that's more of a Forest tactic in general than something to counter specific opposition but yeah still shows his mind at work on the tactical side and that he wasn't just picking his team and only telling them to pass the ball to someone in the same shirt (undoubtedly that was one of his main instructions though).


Yeah, I suppose judging by what Guardiola said maybe he did draw some inspiration from Cruyff's man management too, and it'd be hard to copy Cloughie's. But yeah I was mainly thinking of the definite playing style (more evident even in latter years although the principles of a possession game were there in the glory period too as you say) and stuff like that (maybe treatment of refs like I say as an extension of following his ideas).

 

[Clifford]

The answer to this question for me is that no one is able to fully understand what Clough did to emulate it. On the surface the premise looks very simple, keep the ball on the floor and find a red shirt.

He made the game simple for the players but the way he did this was anything but simple. He spoke once about a player who was a good technician but scared of a tackle, he put him in with a partner who wasn't. That made me think that behind a team and tactics that seemed very simple there were a thousand little calculations.

Barbara also spoke about him sitting at home and she could see his brain working. I think he was much more cerebral than people realise. The tactics appeared simple by design so players could pull them off on matchday, but they were only simple because Mr Clough had worked it all out in advance for them, working out their strengths and weaknesses in advance and setting them up accordingly. People consistantly miss that part of his style, likely because he undersold it himself.

That's the major reason no one gets it right. Add the ability of Peter Taylor to spot a player and the man management skills and charisma and you have a unique package. No one has fully emulated him because it's not easy to emulate the greatest ever manager. Especially when you don't fully understand what he did.

Special mention to Martin O'Neill though, he gets the closest, excellent manager and a crime that we never got him here.

 

[Strummer]

That tactical masterclass against Hamburg in 1980 though.

An almost unheard of five man midfield and Garry Birtles as a lone forward?

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

The answer to this question for me is that no one is able to fully understand what Clough did to emulate it. On the surface the premise looks very simple, keep the ball on the floor and find a red shirt.

He made the game simple for the players but the way he did this was anything but simple. He spoke once about a player who was a good technician but scared of a tackle, he put him in with a partner who wasn't. That made me think that behind a team and tactics that seemed very simple there were a thousand little calculations.

Barbara also spoke about him sitting at home and she could see his brain working. I think he was much more cerebral than people realise. The tactics appeared simple by design so players could pull them off on matchday, but they were only simple because Mr Clough had worked it all out in advance for them, working out their strengths and weaknesses in advance and setting them up accordingly. People consistantly miss that part of his style, likely because he undersold it himself.

That's the major reason no one gets it right. Add the ability of Peter Taylor to spot a player and the man management skills and charisma and you have a unique package. No one has fully emulated him because it's not easy to emulate the greatest ever manager. Especially when you don't fully understand what he did.

Special mention to Martin O'Neill though, he gets the closest, excellent manager and a crime that we never got him here.

Nice post, and the sort of thing that makes me think it was worthwhile starting the thread anyway.

I do think he knew instinctively at times how to get the best out of certain players, and what to ask them to do.

But I do still come back to the thought - has anybody really tried (even going so far as being devout in commitment to what you point out in sentence 2 above, so really setting out the stall to replicate the basic principles and to differenciate Forest from a lot of other teams and make them recognisable instantly for the way they play)? Not whether anyone succeeded but whether anyone was committed to trying to replicate his teams (that they played in). It seems like whether it be Pearce, Nigel, even O'Neill, Laws maybe too - they could all describe the principles he espoused but they were all a bit more pragmatic/standard in the way they decided to ask their teams to play. Obviously someone like Megson was very different to Clough in what he wanted from his teams but to be fair he hardly spent any time playing under him. Whether Danny Wilson took any inspiration for his Barnsley team (example of limited initial success but not replicating success in the top league of course) I don't know but he was also not at Forest long and was another early 80's player (Hodge was there too but also again in the late 80's which is the era I'm mostly thinking of, going into the 90's).

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I don't think you can "produce" anyone like Clough, regardless of how much they try and mimic their mentor.

If you speak with MON you'll instantly click on how clever the bloke is anyway. He's fascinated with stuff like serial killers, and just has this mind which seems to want to pick apart everthing. He's sharp as a tack, and it's no coincidence that he's had a successful management career, as his intelligence has allowed him to take elements of Clough and shape that to his mould. If he hadn't worked under Clough I doubt he'd have been quie as suceessful, but for my money he still would have been very good naturally anyway.

If all the players who played under Clough would have had his intelligence they'd have been far more successful as managers. Sadly, a lot of them didn't.

 

[Strummer]

Madrid, 1980:

Keegan: "you're not going to kick me, are you Larry?"

Lloyd: "oh no, Kev. But my mate Burnsie is going to absolutely muller you!"