The Mood

[Cloughie1975]

They wouldn't though, because football has changed so much. Because all players nowadays are more skilful than Pele we kind of lose sight of how good players are now. Remember twenty years ago only Glenn Hoddle-style players could ping the ball across the pitch to the opposing winger, and there'd be an appreciative ripple of applause when someone did?

Now a championship centre-half can do that without even trying, and no-one notices because that's the absolute bare minimum.

Obviously it’s difficult to compare eras because of improved pitches and extra fitness but the
team I saw beat Celtic in Glasgow in 1983 had some better players than we have now.
Hans van Breukelen was a way better goalkeeper than anything Forest have seen this season.
Garry Birtles and Peter Davenport were quality,fit and mobile strikers who had instant control
of a football (a must for a Clough side) and offered more than Wood and Awoniyi ever will.
I’d take England international Steve Hodge and legend Ian Bowyer over our current
midfielders who rarely score.Also,Colin Walsh had a wand of a left foot,could cross a ball
properly and was always likely to score as well.
Defensively,Viv Anderson and Chris Fairclough were seriously good footballers who were
unlikely to give soft goals away (the sort we saw at Brighton on Sunday).
To say that this team is inferior to the current side is rather like saying the England T20 batsmen
are better than Don Bradman because they can hit the ball further.
Additionally,the team of 40 years ago played to a proper plan and possessed pairs of
enormous bollocks (which the current bunch don’t).
I wish we had some of the 83/84 side in their peak available at Luton on Saturday.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

It's like saying Brunel would be a shit engineer today because he can't use CAD. Talent maxes out at the limits of what is possible with the resources you have available. The peaks Cruyff hit at his time would be amplified today. All pre-conditions being equal.

 

[Malwood]

Obviously it’s difficult to compare eras because of improved pitches and extra fitness but the
team I saw beat Celtic in Glasgow in 1983 had some better players than we have now.
Hans van Breukelen was a way better goalkeeper than anything Forest have seen this season.
Garry Birtles and Peter Davenport were quality,fit and mobile strikers who had instant control
of a football (a must for a Clough side) and offered more than Wood and Awoniyi ever will.
I’d take England international Steve Hodge and legend Ian Bowyer over our current
midfielders who rarely score.Also,Colin Walsh had a wand of a left foot,could cross a ball
properly and was always likely to score as well.
Defensively,Viv Anderson and Chris Fairclough were seriously good footballers who were
unlikely to give soft goals away (the sort we saw at Brighton on Sunday).
To say that this team is inferior to the current side is rather like saying the England T20 batsmen
are better than Don Bradman because they can hit the ball further.
Additionally,the team of 40 years ago played to a proper plan and possessed pairs of
enormous bollocks (which the current bunch don’t).
I wish we had some of the 83/84 side in their peak available at Luton on Saturday.

This is like saying "oh that Carl Lewis, he was an amazing runner, he could fly, he'd beat Usain Bolt any day"

But the stopwatch says he couldn't. If you took Carl Lewis and brought him to today with todays training methods and todays spikes, then who knows.

But the point is that the world 100m record only ever goes down. You never get a time that can't be beaten. Sprinters only ever get faster. Football players only ever get better. The best player of this decade is the best player ever. But they won't be as good as the best player of the next decade.

 

[Monkman]

I think that's too reductive.

 

[Cloughie1975]

This is like saying "oh that Carl Lewis, he was an amazing runner, he could fly, he'd beat Usain Bolt any day"

But the stopwatch says he couldn't. If you took Carl Lewis and brought him to today with todays training methods and todays spikes, then who knows.

But the point is that the world 100m record only ever goes down. You never get a time that can't be beaten. Sprinters only ever get faster. Football players only ever get better. The best player of this decade is the best player ever. But they won't be as good as the best player of the next decade.

Football players aren’t sprinters (some of the worst players I’ve ever seen have been quick
but useless).
Pitches may get better,fitness may improve (when they’re not laid up for weeks in the
treatment room) but players don’t necessarily get better.
I’ve personally never seen two better players than Pele and Johan Cruyff (and that includes
Messi and anyone else).

 

[Strummer]

Football players aren’t sprinters (some of the worst players I’ve ever seen have been quick
but useless).
Pitches may get better,fitness may improve (when they’re not laid up for weeks in the
treatment room) but players don’t necessarily get better.
I’ve personally never seen two better players than Pele and Johan Cruyff (and that includes
Messi and anyone else).

I mentioned Johan earlier in the thread; but he was one-of-a-kind, an absolute genius.

He said: „Football is a game you play with your brain“. His game was not about pace or whatever, his game was about tactics, playing the space, making the ball do the work; and I am absolutely convinced if Johan Cruijff were a budding player today, he would be possibly the best player in the world, simply because the modern game would have given him respite from 70s defenders trying to kick him off the park, and that would allow him even more time to make opposing teams look, frankly, stupid, by going past them as though they weren’t there, or seeing a pass, or a move into space, before a defender could, such was his vision.

You only have to look at his success as a coach, with Ajax Amsterdam and Barcelona; yes, Johan admitted himself, he was standing on the shoulders of Rinus Michels as a Coach, because Rinus developed the original concept of „Voetball Totaal“; but without Johan as a Coach, there would be no „Pep“ Guardiola (who is - rightly - lauded as the best coach in the world, currently).

So yeah; in my book, Johan Cruijff is the man.

Look up some clips of him on YouTube - there are a few - and enjoy.

 

[Gyros Peter]

I think the really top level players, the freaks if you like, would be top of the game in any period. Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc.

 

[Bobby The Brain]

I think the really top level players, the freaks if you like, would be top of the game in any period. Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc.

Jason Lee.

 

[Cloughie1975]

I mentioned Johan earlier in the thread; but he was one-of-a-kind, an absolute genius.

He said: „Football is a game you play with your brain“. His game was not about pace or whatever, his game was about tactics, playing the space, making the ball do the work; and I am absolutely convinced if Johan Cruijff were a budding player today, he would be possibly the best player in the world, simply because the modern game would have given him respite from 70s defenders trying to kick him off the park, and that would allow him even more time to make opposing teams look, frankly, stupid, by going past them as though they weren’t there, or seeing a pass, or a move into space, before a defender could, such was his vision.

You only have to look at his success as a coach, with Ajax Amsterdam and Barcelona; yes, Johan admitted himself, he was standing on the shoulders of Rinus Michels as a Coach, because Rinus developed the original concept of „Voetball Totaal“; but without Johan as a Coach, there would be no „Pep“ Guardiola (who is - rightly - lauded as the best coach in the world, currently).

So yeah; in my book, Johan Cruijff is the man.

Look up some clips of him on YouTube - there are a few - and enjoy.

I agree that he was definitely a genius and would have prospered in any era.

 

[Gyros Peter]

Jason Lee.

Wouldn't mind prime Jason Lee coming off the bench on Saturday in fairness.

 

[Strummer]

I think the really top level players, the freaks if you like, would be top of the game in any period. Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc.

Pele, Maradona, Zidane, proper Ronaldo, Johan Cruijff, Franz Beckenbauer, and I would probably stick Gerd Müller in with that lot, players who you could take and drop in to the modern era, and they would be still fantastic.

I remember seeing proper Ronaldo playing for PSV Eindhoven at 17-18, and he was, frankly, unplayable. El Phenom, they called him, “The Phenomenon“, and correctly so.

When I lived in France for a bit, I saw Zinedine Zidane playing for Girodans Bordeaux, and it was like, this guy, he is operating on a whole different level. He didn‘t have pace, but he just made opposing players, somehow, disappear, and was able to create something from absolutely nothing.

Maradona was, well Maradona. MAD as a box of frogs, but what a footballer.

Sometimes you just see a player, and you know, you think, yeah, this guy, wow.

 

[Bobby The Brain]

Pele, Maradona, Zidane, proper Ronaldo, Johan Cruijff, Franz Beckenbauer, and I would probably stick Gerd Müller in with that lot, players who you could take and drop in to the modern era, and they would be still fantastic.

I remember seeing proper Ronaldo playing for PSV Eindhoven at 17-18, and he was, frankly, unplayable. El Phenom, they called him, “The Phenomenon“, and correctly so.

When I lived in France for a bit, I saw Zinedine Zidane playing for Girodans Bordeaux, and it was like, this guy, he is operating on a whole different level. He didn‘t have pace, but he just made opposing players, somehow, disappear, and was able to create something from absolutely nothing.

Maradona was, well Maradona. MAD as a box of frogs, but what a footballer.

Sometimes you just see a player, and you know, you think, yeah, this guy, wow.

Gazza too. Should have been a world beater.

 

[Frank Clark’s Tash]

Wouldn't mind prime Jason Lee coming off the bench on Saturday in fairness.

Prime Jason Lee would be a nailed-on starter!

 

[football post]

I saw them crumble more than once against the bully boys of Wimbledon-that’s why the
European Cup team were better (they had a meaner streak).
The late 80s side were a beautiful footballing side though and a joy to watch-a team
assembled with some planning and thought (unlike the current bunch who aren’t really a well
constructed unit).
The 83/84 UEFA Cup side would beat our current team easily as well.

I'll give you Wimbledon Cloughie but there were plenty of visits to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Man U that were rewarded with wins.
If we hadn't been banned from Europe that team would have done really well with their counter attacking style.
Yes our players may be more athletic now but they are miles away when it comes to skill and football intelligence compared to the 80's team.

 

[Strummer]

Gazza too. Should have been a world beater.

Much as it pains me to say it, the biggest mistake Gascoigne made was not going to Man United. Beetroot-Face Ferguson would have sorted him out, and he would have ended up the mainstay of the United and England team for probably a decade, and would not have pissed away his talent to the extent that he is apparently nowadays living in his Agent‘s spare-room.

 

[Bobby The Brain]

Much as it pains me to say it, the biggest mistake Gascoigne made was not going to Man United. Beetroot-Face Ferguson would have sorted him out, and he would have ended up the mainstay of the United and England team for probably a decade, and would not have pissed away his talent to the extent that he is apparently nowadays living in his Agent‘s spare-room.

Can’t argue with that. He sorted out Cantona.

Gazza lived down the road from me for a while, apparently he moved after a night in the local spouting racist and homophonic nonsense got him in trouble.

 

[Gyros Peter]

Much as it pains me to say it, the biggest mistake Gascoigne made was not going to Man United. Beetroot-Face Ferguson would have sorted him out, and he would have ended up the mainstay of the United and England team for probably a decade, and would not have pissed away his talent to the extent that he is apparently nowadays living in his Agent‘s spare-room.

Like Collymore, who the same has been said about (and by the player himself I believe?) I think their issues ran too deep for anyone to sort, certainly at the age they would have been. Fergie's Man U would have spat both out imho.

 

[MASE]

Chink of light from the Bournemouth result, they could have caved second half so Proof for the conspiracy theorists not everyone wants us out the league.

Time to shut the f*** up moaning & take out Luton.

 

[Monkman]

Can’t argue with that. He sorted out Cantona.

Gazza lived down the road from me for a while, apparently he moved after a night in the local spouting racist and homophonic nonsense got him in trouble.

My kingdom for a hoarse!
Do I knot like that!
The knight is young!
etc



Sorry

 

[Bobby The Brain]

My kingdom for a hoarse!
Do I knot like that!
The knight is young!
etc



Sorry

Oops, English is hard!

 

[Red Ray's Redlist]

I mentioned Johan earlier in the thread; but he was one-of-a-kind, an absolute genius.

He said: „Football is a game you play with your brain“. His game was not about pace or whatever, his game was about tactics, playing the space, making the ball do the work; and I am absolutely convinced if Johan Cruijff were a budding player today, he would be possibly the best player in the world, simply because the modern game would have given him respite from 70s defenders trying to kick him off the park, and that would allow him even more time to make opposing teams look, frankly, stupid, by going past them as though they weren’t there, or seeing a pass, or a move into space, before a defender could, such was his vision.

You only have to look at his success as a coach, with Ajax Amsterdam and Barcelona; yes, Johan admitted himself, he was standing on the shoulders of Rinus Michels as a Coach, because Rinus developed the original concept of „Voetball Totaal“; but without Johan as a Coach, there would be no „Pep“ Guardiola (who is - rightly - lauded as the best coach in the world, currently).

So yeah; in my book, Johan Cruijff is the man.

Look up some clips of him on YouTube - there are a few - and enjoy.

Obviously not the same level as Cruyff, but who is or was, but I'd love to have seen Nigel Clough play in today's game. He was just so good at opening up the pitch. He'd still not be athletic but then he was a chess player rather than todays headless chickens. And as he played with his back to goal, not having brick outhouse centre backs smashing through him would have made even better.

 

[Notcher]

Obviously not the same level as Cruyff, but who is or was, but I'd love to have seen Nigel Clough play in today's game. He was just so good at opening up the pitch. He'd still not be athletic but then he was a chess player rather than todays headless chickens. And as he played with his back to goal, not having brick outhouse centre backs smashing through him would have made even better.

I think he was like Teddy Sheringham in a lot of ways. Not particularly quick or big. But very clever with the ball, linked play brilliantly and brought others in and was a good finisher in the box.

 

[Strummer]

I think he was like Teddy Sheringham in a lot of ways. Not particularly quick or big. But very clever with the ball, linked play brilliantly and brought others in and was a good finisher in the box.

Dimitar Berbetov was another; not the biggest, not the fastest, but he had an uncanny ability, like Sheringham and The Number Nine, to find himself some space, and he could finish as well.

 

[Gyros Peter]

Obviously not the same level as Cruyff, but who is or was, but I'd love to have seen Nigel Clough play in today's game. He was just so good at opening up the pitch. He'd still not be athletic but then he was a chess player rather than todays headless chickens. And as he played with his back to goal, not having brick outhouse centre backs smashing through him would have made even better.

There's a few from his era I'd love to see in today's game - think all of that England lot of that time would have more than held their own.

 

[MansfieldRed]

I know people are angry, frustrated, and a dozen other synonyms. Me? Apathy. Apathy all the way down. Just so used to it by now that nothing shocks me anymore. I had it while stuck in the Championship, but the previous two seasons felt like something finally building again. This season, back to normal. Back to the status quo, back to the apathy. I get nervous before and during sure, but then when it ends up disappointing there's just nothing there at all. Just a case "Oh. Okay." And I go on with my day.

I am getting more interest in seeing Stags doing well in League Two.