• All - as you will understand, the forum is exceptionally busy at this time. The admins and moderators simply don't have time to read every post in every thread. Could you PLEASE use the "Report" option below a post to flag any content that you feel we need to be aware of. We'll review everything reported as a priority and deal with it accordingly. Thank you.

Standard of Referees

adam09

Bob McKinlay
Maybe Prem refs aint that bad....


Have a look at all 3 decisions on that thread, same ref, same game

Saw them earlier and to be fair, there's a lot of attitude from the Watford player(s) there.

Just take the corner left footed or get someone else to do it.

Keeper should have been sent off, obviously. That's a poor decision.
 

Browser79

First Team Squad
Totally agree, but what is the appeal panel made up of? I believe I have read that there is a ref, a PGMOL rep and an ex player?

If this is correct, the crucial person here is the ex player to discuss the context from a players angle. I'm sure an ex player in the VAR room would reduce the amount of idiotic decisions from 6 qualified officials.
I don’t think Webb recognises them as a source of truth, as they’re not his trained refs. That’s how it typically comes across when he’s asked to comment on a decision of theirs that challenged his referee. He certainly doesn’t acknowledge or learn from the panel.

The panel is as pointless as VAR is really.
 
Last edited:

valspoodle

Steve Chettle
VAR needs a whole complete overhaul, but I'm not sure how much latitude the people in this country have to introduce their own rules.

The red card for two yellows needs sorting. It seems rather silly to be able to VAR a straight red but not two yellows when the outcome is the same. Particularly the Rob Jones howler.

Offsides of course are not factually correct at the moment because the equipment used is not accurate enough. The rules are quite clear, it's just that when you are measuring in mms and particularly when players are moving at speed in different directions at times, the present estimation when the ball leaves the foot of the attacking player passing it forward is just a guess.
 

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
Totally agree, but what is the appeal panel made up of? I believe I have read that there is a ref, a PGMOL rep and an ex player?

If this is correct, the crucial person here is the ex player to discuss the context from a players angle. I'm sure an ex player in the VAR room would reduce the amount of idiotic decisions from 6 qualified officials.
Well, what i've often wondered is if they could get ex-players to ref. It's as logical (Provided they don't have injuries which prevents the movement, which is less necessary with VARs) as moving into coaching.

They understand the game and know what it's like to play the game.

I think Sam Allison is an underrated ref - he is related to Wayne Allison who used to play as a striker, not sure if Sam has played himself. Maybe it helps.

Either way I don't like the idea of the VARs being just the same select group who work on the pitch. It's a different skill and also, it's mates marking each other. If a junior ref like Allison is on VAR against someone like Tierney or Jones how would they feel telling them they are wrong when they are more senior? The instinct there is to back the onfield decision. You could even see that it would be better to have people like Clattenburg in there who have done their time as a ref on the field, got experience and more so than those doing VAR.
 

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
You can't appeal yellow cards. Despite the PGMOL saying that Rob Jones had made an incorrect decision, Boly still had to serve his ban!
So the answer here is that 2nd yellows are reviewed as they are red cards in any other sense. Including looking at the first yellow.

If there's an error in the 2nd yellow decision it's overturned, if the 1st yellow is wrong but the 2nd yellow isn't then they stay on too.
 

Mr. Blonde

TWO-NIL! 👀
VAR needs a whole complete overhaul, but I'm not sure how much latitude the people in this country have to introduce their own rules.

The red card for two yellows needs sorting. It seems rather silly to be able to VAR a straight red but not two yellows when the outcome is the same. Particularly the Rob Jones howler.
As I remember VAR was brought in to correct "clear and obvious errors"

I mean we all know that's bollocks now but given that's the principle, why should it matter what "clear and obvious" error they overturn?

That VAR cannot intervene to overturn a yellow card but they can to overturn a straight red seems completely arbitrary to me
 

ubik

Geoff Thomas
So the answer here is that 2nd yellows are reviewed as they are red cards in any other sense. Including looking at the first yellow.

If there's an error in the 2nd yellow decision it's overturned, if the 1st yellow is wrong but the 2nd yellow isn't then they stay on too.
That can't be the case as Boly's incorrect ban wasn't overturned - or have they changed the rules since last season?
 

PlayedOnGrass

Viv Anderson
and we thought we had a problem

1738166890800.png
 

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
That can't be the case as Boly's incorrect ban wasn't overturned - or have they changed the rules since last season?
No, it's what I'd do with it... would make a lot more sense really.
 

PynchonForest

John Robertson
Not sure if you’ve said before - but do you think VAR helps refs? Personally I don’t think VAR and looking for perfection helps them. They’re trying to do their job with somebody on their shoulder marking them every second - how can anybody work in that situation? Linesmen seem to default to do noting or go crazy with the flag up every few seconds.

I’d honestly rather bin var and go back to everybody knowing who was in charge and accept they do their best but mistakes happen. There never used to be this much attention on decisions.
Oh I hate VAR. It has almost killed assistant referees and it's become a huge crutch for center refs. My friend who held a FIFA badge for about 12 years, and who reffed in MLS for countless seasons, after VAR came into play his reffing changed quite demonstrably. And it was not for the better. BUT I doubt it is ever going to go away, at this point. The only significant European country that does not use VAR is Sweden.
 

PynchonForest

John Robertson
Foul recognition is learnt from playing football, watching football, which I have been doing for over 30 years. I probably would have took up officiating if my knees weren't shot.

Of course refereeing is very difficult but I think understanding what is and isn't a foul, what is and isn't serious should be the easy part if you understand the game well.

Some of these refs seem to change their mind from game to game and within in the same game. It's infurirating for everybody.
The whole point is that it is not as simple as you make out. Different games require a different level of foul tolerance, even in the same league. You will have derbies that have a higher threshold for fouls than a "regular" game. But that tolerance is based around niggling or smaller fouls. A two footed tackle is always a two footed tackle. Studs to the knee isn't "malleable". The serious fouls don't change. But the smaller ones do. One post above goes on about jersey tugging and what is and is not a foul. There are countless grabs that are not punished during any game because they don't change the balance of possession, and that is a key aspect of when something is called. There are two main thresholds----how serious is the foul, and does the foul committed impact what is happening to the player with possession. There are tons of pushes and holds that are not called, because they are not significant enough. Now, sometimes there is a juggle between a player losing possession because of a poor touch and the grab immediately beforehand, and in the interest of having a game flow, at times that juggle might be incorrect. I play advantage very aggressively, so the odd time I might get that dynamic wrong, but the goals I have "created" by applying advantage in this manner far outweigh what I get wrong once in a while in terms of juggling whether a foul is significant enough to be called or not. But that is just my particular way of refereeing. My bottom line theory about refereeing is to have games flow as much as possible, and that is supported by the way I play advantage. If teams want to play, I will let them. If they want to be assholes, I will treat them as such, not play advantage unless it is glaringly obvious, and that might impact something they would have gained if they weren't overly demonstrative about being fouled. Indeed, different players want different things form you at different times, and trying to figure that out isn't always easy. Hopefully that clarifies things a bit.
 

PynchonForest

John Robertson
I don't know if Lewis-Smelly deserved to be sent off or not, but six qualified refs on the pitch and in Stockley Park presumably thought so.

Let's hope they are being asked for observations
Only two people involved in that decision, Oliver and England. And they were both wrong. But the Ars and fourth have nothing to do with that one, in any way. An AR or a fourth is not going to overrule the center ref when he is five yards away from the incident and they are forty of fifty unless it is something they are certain he did not see at all. VAR should have intervened. Darren England, ultimately, is the big villain in this instance, imho. Oliver certainly botched it, for whatever reason. But England, at the very least, should have sent him to the screen. My Serbian buddy and I were trying to figure out why Oliver gave him red. Maybe Lewis Skelly said something to him earlier that pissed him (Oliver) off. Who knows? Lewis Skelly is a kid and sometimes (and I have seen this locally) younger players get treated like they have to "earn" their place and accept a bit more physical abuse from the older players. It's wrong, and I certainly don't condone that mentality at all, but I have seen some of the experienced refs here take that tact with young "up and coming" players. Perhaps that is what happened in this game. It's a complete mystery to me why Oliver red carded him.
 

PynchonForest

John Robertson
Incident in the Lille Feyenoord game around 29 minutes---ref is one of the top UEFA officials and the way he handled it was real poor.
 

ARedChester

First Team Squad
Only two people involved in that decision, Oliver and England. And they were both wrong. But the Ars and fourth have nothing to do with that one, in any way. An AR or a fourth is not going to overrule the center ref when he is five yards away from the incident and they are forty of fifty unless it is something they are certain he did not see at all. VAR should have intervened. Darren England, ultimately, is the big villain in this instance, imho. Oliver certainly botched it, for whatever reason. But England, at the very least, should have sent him to the screen. My Serbian buddy and I were trying to figure out why Oliver gave him red. Maybe Lewis Skelly said something to him earlier that pissed him (Oliver) off. Who knows? Lewis Skelly is a kid and sometimes (and I have seen this locally) younger players get treated like they have to "earn" their place and accept a bit more physical abuse from the older players. It's wrong, and I certainly don't condone that mentality at all, but I have seen some of the experienced refs here take that tact with young "up and coming" players. Perhaps that is what happened in this game. It's a complete mystery to me why Oliver red carded him.
It's interesting the use, or mainly the lack of ARs. Majority I have seen are scared to flag for anything, instead looking at the R to see what he indicates before raising their flar in agreement. It's disappointing and shows lack of confidence by both the R and AR.
 

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
Only two people involved in that decision, Oliver and England. And they were both wrong. But the Ars and fourth have nothing to do with that one, in any way. An AR or a fourth is not going to overrule the center ref when he is five yards away from the incident and they are forty of fifty unless it is something they are certain he did not see at all. VAR should have intervened. Darren England, ultimately, is the big villain in this instance, imho. Oliver certainly botched it, for whatever reason. But England, at the very least, should have sent him to the screen. My Serbian buddy and I were trying to figure out why Oliver gave him red. Maybe Lewis Skelly said something to him earlier that pissed him (Oliver) off. Who knows? Lewis Skelly is a kid and sometimes (and I have seen this locally) younger players get treated like they have to "earn" their place and accept a bit more physical abuse from the older players. It's wrong, and I certainly don't condone that mentality at all, but I have seen some of the experienced refs here take that tact with young "up and coming" players. Perhaps that is what happened in this game. It's a complete mystery to me why Oliver red carded him.
The 4th official can get people sent off though... whether they will or not depends on who they are usually and which club is playing.

I heard it was because it was classed as violent conduct and not a foul. I'm not sure why they would try and do some kind of initiation with being stupidly harsh to young players, that just seems a bit silly. I don't think they did it with Saka or Nwaneri so not sure why they would single out Lewis-Smelly, and if he'd been mouthing off at Oliver that would presumably be a yellow card for dissent?
 

Redofheaven2

Youth Team
Only two people involved in that decision, Oliver and England. And they were both wrong. But the Ars and fourth have nothing to do with that one, in any way. An AR or a fourth is not going to overrule the center ref when he is five yards away from the incident and they are forty of fifty unless it is something they are certain he did not see at all. VAR should have intervened. Darren England, ultimately, is the big villain in this instance, imho. Oliver certainly botched it, for whatever reason. But England, at the very least, should have sent him to the screen. My Serbian buddy and I were trying to figure out why Oliver gave him red. Maybe Lewis Skelly said something to him earlier that pissed him (Oliver) off. Who knows? Lewis Skelly is a kid and sometimes (and I have seen this locally) younger players get treated like they have to "earn" their place and accept a bit more physical abuse from the older players. It's wrong, and I certainly don't condone that mentality at all, but I have seen some of the experienced refs here take that tact with young "up and coming" players. Perhaps that is what happened in this game. It's a complete mystery to me why Oliver red carded him.
You can’t have it all ways, you are hypothesising that Lewis Skelly may have mouthed off to Oliver who then logged that away to be used later. That then becomes a bias ergo referees can be bias. It’s human nature.
 

valspoodle

Steve Chettle
I'm always fascinated when refs tell us what is right and wrong yet make wrong or controversial decisions themselves. Except for the perfect few, of course.

Undoubtedly they know the rules, but interpreting them and getting it right is a whole different ball game. Plus, if you know the rules and others don't you always win the argument because you appear to be right, but a bit of delving in the rules later often makes it appear less black and white.
 

Captain Sinister

Senior doom Monger
HHaving watched the footage, it was never a red card, andlike MGW against Ipswich, it wasn't even a foul.
Ref got it wrong, but he is Michael Oliver, he converses with God over reffing matters so as to keep God up to date.
Darren England is a mere minion.
How could he ever question such a member of the refereeing aristocrasy?
 

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
You can’t have it all ways, you are hypothesising that Lewis Skelly may have mouthed off to Oliver who then logged that away to be used later. That then becomes a bias ergo referees can be bias. It’s human nature.
It was a pretty early challenge as well, if Lewis-Smelly is a gobby little kid then I doubt he would have done enough to piss Oliver off enough for him to consider sending him off to put him in his place. I doubt they would do that anyway. It sounds more like something they'd do to year 9s in Eton than on the pitch in the PL.
 

Lady Penelope

First Team Squad
Are referees biased or incompetent? Over the ages the debate has raged and VAR has not helped. It could though, the technology is not being used wisely.

I can see a situation in the future where the on-field ref is there to implement the decisions made by technology, and to communicate with the players. I'm not sure that I would approve but it is something to consider.

It's clear though that whatever tech is used, VAR+ or nothing at all, then few things need to happen:

clubs need to instruct their players not to cheat
if cheating is shown to have happened, then a massive fine for the club and ban for the player must follow
corner kicks ... blimey. If the attacking team grapples/fouls a defender, it's a free kick to the defending side. If the defender grapples/fouls the attacker, then it's a penalty, but it's not, these are so rarely given. The goings-on at corners amaze me, and a review of games from years ago shows that it didn't happen so much then. What to do about it? Instruction before the game not to do it. Instant foul / penalty if it happens.

Basically, stop cheating to help the refs. The alternative is a 'star wars' type of 'official in the sky' (infinitely better than the current nonsense though, and that's not difficult).

Dream on!
 
Top Bottom