Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[DizzyBala]

If we go down due to a points deduction the PL is a disgrace, We would have to rebuild the whole squad in the championship, MGW, Murillo, Elanga, Sangare, Dominguez, Awoniyi, CHO would all leave on top of the the players that are out of contract.

Considering that we were aware that we were close to the limit last January and still went ahead with the Shelvey and Wood deals for example, it's not the Premierleague's fault at all.

If the difference is what we would have sold Johnson for in June and what we sold him for in August, that difference in money is Shelvey and Wood.

Easy to say that we had to bring players in, given the status of our Championship promotion team but whose fault was that in the first place? The club's. We wasted money on Dennis, Biancone, O'Brien, Freuler, Richards, Shelvey and Hwang. We spent at least 55m Euros on that lot. Throw in Wood and that's about 75m Euros.

A sustainable rebuild might in the long term serve us better. If you look at some of our early recruitment from the Bundesliga for example, Taiwo/Moussa/Orel will all make the club money and have been some of our better players.

 

[Bonalair]

Obviously Man City will finish bottom with Sheff U & Burnley also dropping

Our suspended 3 point deduction for a minor breach will irritate me but I'll console myself as MGW lifts the FA Cup as big EM bears his arse to all the FA dignitaries

Is bearing your arse different to baring your arse?

Big man looks like he could be hairy, reckon he could do both at the same time.

 

[Redemption]

bearing your arse

Isn't that what Balloo does with a prickly pear?

 

[Eddie Yates]

Is bearing your arse different to baring your arse?

Big man looks like he could be hairy, reckon he could do both at the same time.

I acknowledge my grammatical error and I offer my sincerest apologies to the grammar police and all of their spies

 

[Battered Sausage]

You forgot the full stop at the end of your sentence.

Yours,

The GP.

 

[Raymondo Ponte']

Yuv learnt nowt Edz

 

[Harry1982]

Everton’s 10 point deduction was based on breaching permitted losses by £19.4m

Yeah just read that aswell, which seems ridiculous that they have not been able to recoup that in a season and are in the same predicament this season. Especially with 777 50million cash injection, I'm assuming the financing for the new stadium doesn't affect this?

 

[Gyros Peter]

Wasn't the Everton loss thing skewed by them writing off 250m or something as COVID losses?

 

[Robertson]

Biancone, O'Brien, Freuler, Richards

A sustainable rebuild might in the long term serve us better. If you look at some of our early recruitment from the Bundesliga for example, Taiwo/Moussa/Orel will all make the club money and have been some of our better players.

Absolute 20/20 hindsight here. All of the players in the first list could easily have made it onto your second if things had worked out differently. Also Freuler being a waste of money continues to be a weird take since he was in the team all season, didn’t cost that much in the first place, and we traded up with him to get Dominguez.

 

[andover red]

Easy to say that we had to bring players in, given the status of our Championship promotion team but whose fault was that in the first place? The club's. We wasted money on Dennis, Biancone, O'Brien, Freuler, Richards, Shelvey and Hwang. We spent at least 55m Euros on that lot. Throw in Wood and that's about 75m Euros.

The general point that we could have spent less is a fair one, but by doing so we would probably have been relegated.

The suggestion that we 'wasted' money on the players you listed just isn't fair though. Biancone and Richards picked up season-long injuries so you can't blame the club for that. That leaves five players, of which I would say Shelvey and Hwang could truly be classed as a waste of money. The others looked like decent signings but just didn't come off - that happens to all clubs and not even the best clubs make a success of every signing. Even if you did include them, a miss rate of 5 players out of 30 is not a stick with which to beat the club. I'd call that a successful recruitment drive.

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[YouReds43]

Considering that we were aware that we were close to the limit last January and still went ahead with the Shelvey and Wood deals for example, it's not the Premierleague's fault at all.

If the difference is what we would have sold Johnson for in June and what we sold him for in August, that difference in money is Shelvey and Wood.

Easy to say that we had to bring players in, given the status of our Championship promotion team but whose fault was that in the first place? The club's. We wasted money on Dennis, Biancone, O'Brien, Freuler, Richards, Shelvey and Hwang. We spent at least 55m Euros on that lot. Throw in Wood and that's about 75m Euros.

A sustainable rebuild might in the long term serve us better. If you look at some of our early recruitment from the Bundesliga for example, Taiwo/Moussa/Orel will all make the club money and have been some of our better players.

Who thought we were going to get promoted that season, absolutely no one, I agree with your last point our transfers last season started well, with Syrianos and as he is now working with us still whatever league we are in I hope we go back to data led signings.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The general point that we could have spent less is a fair one, but by doing so we would probably have been relegated.

The suggestion that we 'wasted' money on the players you listed just isn't fair though. Biancone and Richards picked up season-long injuries so you can't blame the club for that. That leaves five players, of which I would say Shelvey and Hwang could truly be classed as a waste of money. The others looked like decent signings but just didn't come off - that happens to all clubs and not even the best clubs make a success of every signing. Even if you did include them, a miss rate of 5 players out of 30 is not a stick with which to beat the club. I'd call that a successful recruitment drive.

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Pure speculation on my part, but I'd like to see how wages factor into this.

Sorry, but I feel that we could have avoided huge wage signings like Lingard, thus kept the general wage structure at the club more sensible, thus avoided breeching FFP and still stayed up.

Like I say, purely speculatory, but the narrative which is getting peddled about that the club was either faced with a black and white choice of 1) Breech FFP & Stay Up or 2) Don't breech FFP and go down is one I just don't buy. We could have scouted better, spent sensibly and stayed up at the same time in my humble opinion. Would that have been easy? No, but this is the top league in the world and being amongst the "elite" isn't easy.

 

[Robertson]

Players we absolutely didn’t need to sign last season, my definitive list:

Bowler - never been in the squad
Hwang - ditto
Shelvey - had plenty of bodies in midfield, pushed O’Brien out the squad having paid £10m for him six months earlier
Ayew - No better than Lingard or Dennis. Also pushed Cook out the squad, which didn’t look too smart when McKenna and Boly pulled up injured a couple of weeks later.

If wages and fees for those four turn out to have been enough to send us over the limit, then yeah, we probably only have ourselves to blame.

Otherwise we basically did what we had to do to fill a squad with reasonably competent, and crucially not terminally injured, players at the level.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Players we absolutely didn’t need to sign last season, my definitive list:

Bowler - never been in the squad
Hwang - ditto
Shelvey - had plenty of bodies in midfield, pushed O’Brien out the squad having paid £10m for him six months earlier
Ayew - No better than Lingard or Dennis. Also pushed Cook out the squad, which didn’t look too smart when McKenna and Boly pulled up injured a couple of weeks later.

If wages and fees for those four turn out to have been enough to send us over the limit, then yeah, we probably only have ourselves to blame.

Otherwise we basically did what we had to do to fill a squad with reasonably competent, and crucially not terminally injured, players at the level.

Don't Dennis and Lingard fit into that bracket?

Both contributed almost the square root of fack all for us last season.

That's got to be pushing 20m worth of spend when you factor in wages too. I very much doubt either were scouted much either.

 

[Robertson]

Don't Dennis and Lingard fit into that bracket?

Both contributed almost the square root of fack all for us last season.

That's got to be pushing 20m worth of spend when you factor in wages too. I very much doubt either were scouted much either.

The point is we needed to sign some forward players other than just fielding Brennan on his own.

Who else are we signing that costs less than £10m all-in that’s going to have much more impact than Lingard? I don’t doubt it ought to have been possible to get someone better, but in that case we would have just maybe finished a bit higher up the table. We would likely have still have spent just as much money and still have been in FFP trouble.

I suppose what I’m saying here is that signing dodgy players ought to be it’s own punishment, the premier league doesn't need to get involved and punish people further.

 

[Alvar Hanso]

Wasn't the Everton loss thing skewed by them writing off 250m or something as COVID losses?

Clubs are allowed to exclude losses directly caused by Covid from the PSR calcs.

Everton claimed £70.2m losses directly to Covid, but then tried to claim an additional £49.3m due to the impact of Covid on the transfer market.

Both the Premier League and the independent commission rejected the additional claim as it couldn’t be directly blamed on Covid

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The point is we needed to sign some forward players other than just fielding Brennan on his own.

Who else are we signing that costs less than £10m all-in that’s going to have much more impact than Lingard? I don’t doubt it ought to have been possible to get someone better, but in that case we would have just maybe finished a bit higher up the table. We would likely have still have spent just as much money and still have been in FFP trouble.

I suppose what I’m saying here is that signing dodgy players ought to be it’s own punishment, the premier league doesn't need to get involved and punish people further.

True, but we could have signed better. A wet fart would have had more impact than Lingard, and players like Elijah Adebayo would have contributed more and cost less (reported to have cost Luton £250k and has as many goals as Wood this year I think).

Maybe if the club hadn't decided to sack the man buying it's best players in Syrianos after a relatively small amount of games from Awoiniyi, it would have been better prepared for the Jan window ahead and signed someone else of that caliber?

The Prem isn't setup fairly, but this mess is of the club's making. Any punishment we get is 100% deserved, and the people at the top responsible should be held accountable (heck, it's what Marinakis himself wants from us).

 

[Robertson]

Fair enough Luton are doing fairly well with less at the moment. Remains to be seen whether it will be enough to stay in the Premier league without a points deduction to one or more other teams. Which you’d have to say would be fortunate for them even if I do respect what they are doing.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

I hadn't realised that the PSR limits haven't changed in over 10 years. The 3 year loss limit was £105m from 2013-14 and still is. Wage demands and other costs will have risen over the period given that prices of goods tend to double over a ten year period based on historic value of money figures. The purchasing power of £105m in 2013-14 was much greater than £105m now so effectively is a tightening of the losses that can be made over a three year period.

Proposed new PSR rules will really hit us hard I suspect. There appear to be discussions on fixing wages and agents fees at a maximum of 70% of revenue. This will really keep the "bigger clubs" big and keep "smaller clubs" small. Teams with established large fan bases based on historic performances generating massive revenue will be in a position to keep their dominent positions with their ability to spend more. It will be incredibly difficult for teams that grew before PSR to catch upto these teams. I seem to recall that in the Championship our wage to revenue was something like 145% at one point

You can see from this article on Newcastle that they would only be able to spend about a third of the wages that Man City could.

If you want proper competition you need to bring what teams can spend closer together not further apart, but that isn't what its all about is it?

 

[Redemption]

I hadn't realised that the PSR limits haven't changed in over 10 years. The 3 year loss limit was £105m from 2013-14 and still is. Wage demands and other costs will have risen over the period given that prices of goods tend to double over a ten year period based on historic value of money figures. The purchasing power of £105m in 2013-14 was much greater than £105m now so effectively is a tightening of the losses that can be made over a three year period.

Proposed new PSR rules will really hit us hard I suspect. There appear to be discussions on fixing wages and agents fees at a maximum of 70% of revenue. This will really keep the "bigger clubs" big and keep "smaller clubs" small. Teams with established large fan bases based on historic performances generating massive revenue will be in a position to keep their dominent positions with their ability to spend more. It will be incredibly difficult for teams that grew before PSR to catch upto these teams. I seem to recall that in the Championship our wage to revenue was something like 145% at one point

You can see from this article on Newcastle that they would only be able to spend about a third of the wages that Man City could.

If you want proper competition you need to bring what teams can spend closer together not further apart, but that isn't what its all about is it?

The Premier league can only bring these changes because 2/3 of clubs or more vote for them.

 

[andover red]

I hadn't realised that the PSR limits haven't changed in over 10 years. The 3 year loss limit was £105m from 2013-14 and still is. Wage demands and other costs will have risen over the period given that prices of goods tend to double over a ten year period based on historic value of money figures. The purchasing power of £105m in 2013-14 was much greater than £105m now so effectively is a tightening of the losses that can be made over a three year period.

Proposed new PSR rules will really hit us hard I suspect. There appear to be discussions on fixing wages and agents fees at a maximum of 70% of revenue. This will really keep the "bigger clubs" big and keep "smaller clubs" small. Teams with established large fan bases based on historic performances generating massive revenue will be in a position to keep their dominent positions with their ability to spend more. It will be incredibly difficult for teams that grew before PSR to catch upto these teams. I seem to recall that in the Championship our wage to revenue was something like 145% at one point

You can see from this article on Newcastle that they would only be able to spend about a third of the wages that Man City could.

If you want proper competition you need to bring what teams can spend closer together not further apart, but that isn't what its all about is it?

We'll get hit disproportionately hard, as we raise so little in off field revenue in comparison to similarly sized clubs.

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[andover red]

Pure speculation on my part, but I'd like to see how wages factor into this.

Sorry, but I feel that we could have avoided huge wage signings like Lingard, thus kept the general wage structure at the club more sensible, thus avoided breeching FFP and still stayed up.

Like I say, purely speculatory, but the narrative which is getting peddled about that the club was either faced with a black and white choice of 1) Breech FFP & Stay Up or 2) Don't breech FFP and go down is one I just don't buy. We could have scouted better, spent sensibly and stayed up at the same time in my humble opinion. Would that have been easy? No, but this is the top league in the world and being amongst the "elite" isn't easy.

Yeah I'm sure wages were a factor. I suspect we have overpaid in wages, but i guess we'll never know how much harder it would have been to attract players without the wage offer.

And while Luton is a similar scenario, I think they've done such an exceptional job that I find it hard to treat it as a fair comparison. For every 100 clubs that get promoted and spend little money, 99 will do a Sheff Utd and one 1 a Luton.

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[Rubics]

Just seen an article where spurs now make nearly £5m per game profit! highest in the prem and 3rd highest in Europe. With the current rules and grounds how are we supposed to compete with that? Every Brennan we produce will be off unless we start to bridge that gap. 20 years ago we were similar sized clubs.

 

[MC Plantpot]

Just seen an article where spurs now make nearly £5m per game profit! highest in the prem and 3rd highest in Europe. With the current rules and grounds how are we supposed to compete with that? Every Brennan we produce will be off unless we start to bridge that gap. 20 years ago we were similar sized clubs.

Well, I guess the first step is not to try and compete with it, but instead try and compete with the Brentfords, Palaces and Wolves.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

The Premier league can only bring these changes because 2/3 of clubs or more vote for them.

I imagine that would be those who have been up there for about 10 years and 'doing alright' that don't want a newer promoted club to overtake them.