Snatchday 1: Nottingham Forest Vs the PGMOL

[toffeeblue9]

Three letters of complaint about unacceptable refereeing decisions against us.

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

 

[Beeston]

It's a long statement yes and you've chosen to ignore pretty much all of it. Not sure why I'm replying but hey ho.

It goes beyond the weekends game.

And no, I'm not suggesting the on-field ref was definitely corrupt. He might be given we've had bad decisions against us from him in previous games, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt given he didn't have access to multiple replays with different angles. I would even give Attwell a pass as well if it was just this one game, it's the sheer volume sustained over a five month period which is the red flag.

I agree the squad isn't as good as it might be, and that we're badly managed. A number of factors have pushed us towards the brink and it would be folly to think it was only one of them. Refereeing decisions is a big factor though.

Apologies for not fully replying but I think you made too many points in one go to address on a forum.
If the worst happens the only peg Marinakis will have to hang his hat on will be these accusations of persecution/corruption.
So he is getting them out early just in case and possibly hoping for some sort of sympathy at the appeal.
Just my take.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

Not annoyed, don't mind reasonable debate.

I think Forest's opinion (both club and fans) of why we're receiving these bad decisions has shifted over the last few months. In fact I would guarantee it if you went back to old threads then the consensus would be aghast at the incompetence whereas the debate more recently is to whether there is anything nefarious going on.

Either way it doesn't matter, if Forest get relegated by incompetent refs or corrupt ones rather than through sporting merit then the outcome is the same: The club takes a whacking big £80m loss on revenue and people lose their jobs - unfairly.

 

[Notcher]

You know it's bad when Richard Keys is fighting our corner.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1782483666691653909

 

[congo_red_49]

You know it's bad when Richard Keys is fighting our corner.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1782483666691653909

Keys hates us - so when he states:-

No team has suffered more from poor decisions this season than Forest.

It's hard to argue it.

 

[Alan Akbah]

You know it's bad when Richard Keys is fighting our corner.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1782483666691653909

Jesus wept. It was bad enough Souness being on our side yesterday.

I'm off to shower in bleach.

 

[Robertson]

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

Nah - I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think the idea that the club maybe shouldn't have done what they did is going to make anyone here angry particularly, even if they support it.

Plenty of people are angry at the club however, though I'm not really one of them. I try and avoid getting angry at all. Except at inept referees .

 

[Notcher]

"Forest fan, Daryl" on TalkSport just shouted down by White & Jordan after putting over a very reasonable condemnation of the general MSM pile-in on NFFC.

There was also a point made when Simon said claiming bias is saying it's corruption it was then pointed out that Souness said there was bias towards the top 6 and therefore Souness is saying it's corrupt. A point he didn't like.

 

[theloner]

To be fair to myself the Caoimhin Kelleher referee decision grinded my gears more than the Everton ones. Might be a case of not expecting decisions though. Ref literally took it off our attack and gave it to them from which they scored. Looking back that's utterly ridiculous. I also remember the blood pressure rising due to Rashford decision too earlier this season. On that note we really have missed Taiwo.

 

[DocForest]

I think you're all mostly making fair points. You all absolutely have the right to feel aggrieved. On top of the PSR stuff (which we've been calling out for years as a system which is designed to maintain the status quo rather than its stated aim of promoting financial sustainability) that you've come up against this season, you've absolutely had more than your fair share of poor decisions go against you.

You also are absolutely right to be livid about Sunday. If the roles were reversed and we'd had those 3 decisions go against us in a 6 pointer like that, especially after the PSR stuff this season, I can only imagine how apoplectic I would be.

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I'm fairly active on Twitter and work remotely with a team of people across the country who all wanted to talk football yesterday after the weekend and it was my perception that you'd probably alienated the majority of peoples opinion I saw/heard. Granted, we might all be living in an echo chamber and it's probably a generalisation, but I can only really give you my take on it. For what it's worth, I think if the roles were reversed here, I'd find it difficult to be objective about it currently as the red mist would still be clouding my judgement but, from my point of view right now, I think your point about Attwell was perfectly fair, but the execution of it was off. It would have been one to have made in private and then escalated through the correct channels (PL meeting, summit with Howard Webb, whatever). I think it would then have been fair to go public with your concerns if they weren't addressed, without being specific, at the end of the season and simply ask that the process for VAR selection is reviewed.

At the end of the day though, you've got a legitimate axe to grind. I'm not convinced it extends as far as corruption, I'd take more convincing on that point, but it's not for me to tell you how you should be reacting, I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what the feeling is on the issue.

The problem is mate, we've done all that.
I'm with @alabamared - the Liverpool game did me. Have we even had an explanation as to why the referee literally changed the laws of the game to suit a top 6 side, or why any of the other 3 officials or anyone on VAR couldn't have given the ref a shout to let him know. It's not like there wasn't time to do so. You could almost guarantee at that point that the referee was going to carry on playing until Liverpool scored. How many minutes injury time ?
We did get a nice apology for having a player sent off when he didn't even touch the opposition player - whoopee do !
It is corruption, it should be called out for what it is. Not handing over cash in a brown paper bag corruption but it is protect the global brand at all costs corruption.

 

[Notcher]

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

I very much doubt you'll be annoying anyone or get any grief on here. You've come across as a sincere and asking questions which are fair. Opposition supporters like yourself will always be welcomed on here

 

[sammy the snake]

Well as the dust settles today it’s clear they’re attempting to close ranks, but I’m not so sure they’re reading the room on this one.

There’s a wave of momentum that Forest will use, it’s unstoppable, something the established EPL didn’t want. But let’s not forget, we’re here because of a lack of confidence. Forest are demanding change and if clubs want to hide… fine, the every decision corrupt or not is exactly what the ref says.. any sign of dissent will be an immediate sending off…. And here’s the kicker, the rule also has to be applied to the sky 6…..

I very much f***ing doubt that’ll play out lol.. so Forest, sue the *****

 

[Strummer]

I’ve still not gotten over the farcical sending-off of Willy Boly, for being fouled.

Then the shit with the scousers.

Now this weekends‘ bollocks.

On the odd occasion, you can almost - almost - excuse a bad day at the office for match officials, even though VAR is supposed to be there to help them out, but so so many times this season, Forest have been on the end of an atrocious officiating decision, and the VAR isn’t doing the right thing and stepping in.

And after so many incidents, and very little the other way - you know, how these things supposedly level themselves out - you can’t help thinking it cannot simply be coincidence.

 

[Baronvon]

I know people are speculating whether the PGMOL will tinker with the audio (should it even be released to begin with) but I'm not sure what they can really do in that regard to save face.

They can probably bullshit their way through the foul on Reyna - yes, should be a penalty but they'll cobble together some form of sophistry to explain it. They'll rely on the handball rule being so arbitrary and vague to get away with the second.

However, when it comes to the third one, they're shit out of luck. Ashley Young cleans out CHO from behind without getting anywhere near the ball. Even if you fabricating audio after the fact, there is literally nothing they can say which excuses VAR not intervening.

 

[REDDERS78]

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

I think you've answered you own question mate. Forest chose the official channel by contacting the PGMOL directly before the game, and we were ignored. Had we chosen to air THAT publicly then fair enough, but what other official channels can the club use?

If you look at it from neutral perspective and forget about Forest, why are officials with 'skin in the game' being allowed anywhere near this game? What will now be done about the ridiculous levels of either incompetence or some may suggest corruption? Because its either one or the other isn't it? So which one is it? Were waaaay past the line of coincidence at this point aren't we?

When are these people going to grow some balls and face the music? Its like were all part of a massive game and they are playing it out as they wish, indispensable, unaccountable...........In a system that they created and that nobody wanted, a system that totally ruined the game for millions of people. Anybody that says anything gets threatened by them.

I hope we carry on and on and on and I hope it gets as much traction as possible, irrespective of the outcome for us.

As a great man once said "football belongs to everybody".

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Fair enough, but that's slightly different.

I think, for me and a lot of the people I spoke to about it, the two issues are separate really. On the issue of poor VAR decisions, you're right and I doubt many people would have an issue with you airing the fact that you felt Forest had been ridiculously hard done by in the game and it wasn't for the first time this season.

I think the point about VAR impartiality being called into question is a separate one, a more serious one and one which might have been better going through a more formal process in the first instance (and raising it before the game would only have been the first stage in that process).

Again though, I'm treading into the territory of airing an opinion on something without the context of feeling how it is to be on the receiving end (at least of some of it). If this annoys anyone, I apologise, you're all entitled to be angry.

Never apologise for offering an opinion, it's been interesting to get a take on events from an Everton fan so thanks for posting

My opinion as a Forest fan is pretty much aligned with the people you've spoken to; I think the club have a genuine grievance and a point to make but there are ways of going about that and what they did on Sunday still doesn't sit well with me

I get the points about having made previous complaints to no avail but I wish the club had just waited a day or even a few hours and issued a more carefully worded statement on the official site rather than Twitter

To me posting an angry Tweet minutes after the final whistle implying bias from a referee came across as petulant and something you'd expect from an indignant teenager not a professional football club

But what's done is done and my only hope is that it somehow galvanises the team into putting up a real fight to stay in this league as our performance the other day was simply woeful and completely devoid of any passion or urgency

A crucial six-pointer and we played like a team that didn't care, and that I actually find more unacceptable than any terrible refereeing that happened on the day

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I’ve still not gotten over the farcical sending-off of Willy Boly, for being fouled.

Then the shit with the scousers.

Now this weekends‘ bollocks.

On the odd occasion, you can almost - almost - excuse a bad day at the office for match officials, even though VAR is supposed to be there to help them out, but so so many times this season, Forest have been on the end of an atrocious officiating decision, and the VAR isn’t doing the right thing and stepping in.

And after so many incidents, and very little the other way - you know, how these things supposedly level themselves out - you can’t help thinking it cannot simply be coincidence.

I feel the same but honestly with Attwell, I don't think it's bias or corruption, I just think he's a shit ref

 

[Baronvon]

I’ve still not gotten over the farcical sending-off of Willy Boly, for being fouled.

That is legitimately one of the worst decisions I've ever seen in football anywhere. Even when I was playing for my local U15s side as a kid and we'd be lumbered with the one of the opposing team's dad running the line, I didn't see anything quite that bad.

He won the ball cleanly - twice. He wasn't out of control, his leading foot was along the ground and then got fouled himself when the Bournemouth player arrived late and stood on him. On top of all this, the referee had an absolutely perfect, unobstructed view of everything that happened - and still sent Boly off.

 

[Rosie]

Well, if you'd like an alternative view - I'm not in the slightest bit livid - I'm completely apathetic to it all, as I feel my anger would be a wasted emotion that will change nothing.
I'm so fed up with both the state of the modern game after all the rule changes, and the Premier League with it's FFP and poor VAR implementation, that I'm pretty much done with it all and will be spending my Saturday afternoons doing something else which doesn't feel completely pointless in future.

Absolutely this. Forest have lost a paying customer here for the rest of this season because I just don’t see the point any more. It’s all been decided and I am not prepared to watch it play out.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Well, if you'd like an alternative view - I'm not in the slightest bit livid - I'm completely apathetic to it all, as I feel my anger would be a wasted emotion that will change nothing.
I'm so fed up with both the state of the modern game after all the rule changes, and the Premier League with it's FFP and poor VAR implementation, that I'm pretty much done with it all and will be spending my Saturday afternoons doing something else which doesn't feel completely pointless in future.

This is increasingly how I feel and regardless of the outcome of this season I think I'll struggle to have any kind of energy for supporting Forest going forward

If being in an abusive relationship with a corrupt league is as good as it gets then what's even the point?

 

['mist rollin in']

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

I think the initial statement from Forest was a little embarrassing and it's been followed up by some sensible tweets on Monday. I think most football fans are fed up with referees/VAR and it's right to point out the high level of incompetence in the game. VAR is ruining the enjoyment of the game; even the Coventry offside goal is not something that should be accepted. I don't want big feet or kneecaps to be offside; football is an art not a science.

I don't think there is corruption in the game, however it cannot be right that your club and Forest have faced punishment for FFP breaches, yet Man City are going around there business as if nothing has happened. Football is now moving towards a position of protecting bigger clubs e.g. scrapping FA Cup replays. Carragher and Neville are part of the problem, as they are in the position of supporting clubs where the majority of decisions seem to go in their favour, although if something does go against them, it's perfectly acceptable to call out corruption (Liverpool vs Tottenham offside goal).

Every week we're analysing bad decisions on VAR, yet nothing changes. If Forest going all out war on the PGMOL is a catalyst for change then every single team and fan should be behind them and the mood seems to be shifting towards backing Forest.

 

[Robertson]

That is legitimately one of the worst decisions I've ever seen in football anywhere. Even when I was playing for my local U15s side as a kid and we'd be lumbered with the one of the opposing team's dad running the line, I didn't see anything quite that bad.

He won the ball cleanly - twice. He wasn't out of control, his leading foot was along the ground and then got fouled himself when the Bournemouth player arrived late and stood on him. On top of all this, the referee had an absolutely perfect, unobstructed view of everything that happened - and still sent Boly off.

Without hesitation.

 

[Project Zeus]

Well as the dust settles today it’s clear they’re attempting to close ranks, but I’m not so sure they’re reading the room on this one.

There’s a wave of momentum that Forest will use, it’s unstoppable, something the established EPL didn’t want. But let’s not forget, we’re here because of a lack of confidence. Forest are demanding change and if clubs want to hide… fine, the every decision corrupt or not is exactly what the ref says.. any sign of dissent will be an immediate sending off…. And here’s the kicker, the rule also has to be applied to the sky 6…..

I very much f***ing doubt that’ll play out lol.. so Forest, sue the *****

It will fade away as soon as more games are played and there's new things to talk about.

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

"You can't question the integrity of officials..."

Edit: More coming as only allowing me to link 5 videos...

Won't bother with the 3 from the weekend as we all know about those. Missed the Niakhate dodgy red. Missed the one of Toney moving the ball....

 

[Strummer]

To me posting an angry Tweet minutes after the final whistle implying bias from a referee came across as petulant and something you'd expect from an indignant teenager not a professional football club

Anyone would think Forest were being run by someone with a bit of a history of impulsive and petulant behaviour, or something?