Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I enjoy a good reasoned debate - The problem with debating with you - is I know exactly what your response is going to be - it is a broken record.
Even when it is clear on this occasion that the fault lies elsewhere, you manage to put a spin on it where it still sits at EM's door

You are right of course - I don't know your emotional disposition - it is probably me that is depressed on your behalf

I just asked a question, you failed to answer it knowing full well neither you nor I know if the club would have done anything differently.

Assuming that they would, with our track record, is optimistic at best in my opinion. If that hurts your feelings to the point is depresses you though I'm sorry.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

I just asked a question, you failed to answer it knowing full well neither you nor I know if the club would have done anything differently.

Assuming that they would, with our track record, is optimistic at best in my opinion. If that hurts your feelings to the point is depresses you though I'm sorry.

To answer your question - I would like to think that things are improving with the decision making at the club - I think from last summer and the January window, it can be demonstrated that there is better decision making - with the exception of the goalkeeping situation - although we appear to have got that right eventually.

I don't get your fixation with Akpom?
As far as I can see, we enquired his availability - they quoted us a silly cost and we walked away. I not sure what is wrong with that or how it relates to the topic of discussion in my original posting

and finally >>>>>>
Thank you for your concern but I am not depressed. Life is good, the holiday weekend has just started for me, 2 home home matches in 4 days and I look forward to a minimum of 4 points (don't care which way round), then off to my bolthole in Spain for a 10 days and back for the Wolves game

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

To answer your question - I would like to think that things are improving with the decision making at the club - I think from last summer and the January window, it can be demonstrated that there is better decision making - with the exception of the goalkeeping situation - although we appear to have got that right eventually.

I don't get your fixation with Akpom?
As far as I can see, we enquired his availability - they quoted us a silly cost and we walked away. I not sure what is wrong with that or how it relates to the topic of discussion in my original posting

and finally >>>>>>
Thank you for your concern but I am not depressed. Life is good, the holiday weekend has just started for me, 2 home home matches in 4 days and I look forward to a minimum of 4 points (don't care which way round), then off to my bolthole in Spain for a 10 days and back for the Wolves game

See, wasn't that hard was it?

Akpom showed that Marinakis Jr still intended on spending money despite the FFP/PSR situation at the club.

Sounds like you need the holiday. Hope you enjoy.

 

[Strummer]

I would like to think that things are improving with the decision making at the club

Decision making at the club:

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Decision making at the club:

View attachment 36996

I am going to Spain on holiday - not bull fighting

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Akpom showed that Marinakis Jr still intended on spending money despite the FFP/PSR situation at the club.

Sounds like you need the holiday. Hope you enjoy.

But that's the point... we didn't proceed with the deal

I think we all know that although we have 2 good centre forwards - it is difficult to keep them fit.
It was wise to see if there were any opportunities to strengthen in that position, so we explored the market.
The right opportunity at an affordable price wasn't available, so we didn't proceed.
That is good business sense

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Sounds like you need the holiday. Hope you enjoy.

I might be away - but I will probably still stress myself out on here

 

[beast85]

Anyone listened to the latest price of football podcast? Keiran & friend believe our appeal is just going after the rules we think are unfair and our arguments are pretty weak.

This isn't criticism of them and there opinions as I enjoy there podcast. Only thing that confuses me is zero mention of us finding out about the promotion & COVID monies 2 weeks before the deadline. The "lazy" narrative as Robert put it is we bought to many players. Oh & it's unfair on Luton

 

[Forest65]

I might be away - but I will probably still stress myself out on here

Hope you're not coming to Spain, it's pissng it down just about everywhere at the moment.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

But that's the point... we didn't proceed with the deal

I think we all know that although we have 2 good centre forwards - it is difficult to keep them fit.
It was wise to see if there were any opportunities to strengthen in that position, so we explored the market.
The right opportunity at an affordable price wasn't available, so we didn't proceed.
That is good business sense

It is, but it's also clear that the club were entertaining deals like that.

Akpom went to Ajax for 12m and has scored 7 goals in 18 league matches there. His value won't have dropped in that time.

So either the club were aware of that and setting themselves up for a 12m+ deal, or they weren't and that shows incredibly bad knowledge of the transfer market.

Either way it's not a good look, and shows those buying to be impulsive, incompetent or both. Something which extends to their previous time running us, including the time in question relating to FFP/PSR.

 

[valspoodle]

As I get older some things appear clear, a couple are that life was much simpler in the past or I simply can't understand stuff any more.

The more I try to follow the present FFP rows, the less I grasp.

And the fact that we didn't have these rules in the past didn't seem to detract from the appeal of the game. Title winners were spread out amongst the football family both in League and Cup. Sugar daddies took over clubs, piled on the cash, but rarely managed to make a difference.

And entrance fees and players wages stayed quite reasonable. Though it must be said facilities at clubs were less than basic.

But is football in a better position now? Are we happier for 'progress'?

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

As I get older some things appear clear, a couple are that life was much simpler in the past or I simply can't understand stuff any more.

The more I try to follow the present FFP rows, the less I grasp.

And the fact that we didn't have these rules in the past didn't seem to detract from the appeal of the game. Title winners were spread out amongst the football family both in League and Cup. Sugar daddies took over clubs, piled on the cash, but rarely managed to make a difference.

And entrance fees and players wages stayed quite reasonable. Though it must be said facilities at clubs were less than basic.

But is football in a better position now? Are we happier for 'progress'?

Unfortunately Richard "we" don't matter.

The PL doesn't care about fans, integrity, competition, the murkiness of some owners, grassroots football or anything like that.

It cares about money, and money alone. Progress to the PL is more money, and on that metric they are delighted with the progress over the last 30 years.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

It is, but it's also clear that the club were entertaining deals like that.

Akpom went to Ajax for 12m and has scored 7 goals in 18 league matches there. His value won't have dropped in that time.

So either the club were aware of that and setting themselves up for a 12m+ deal, or they weren't and that shows incredibly bad knowledge of the transfer market.

Either way it's not a good look, and shows those buying to be impulsive, incompetent or both. Something which extends to their previous time running us, including the time in question relating to FFP/PSR.

I will settle for the first 2 words - 'It is'

I am not sure that 7 in 18 is a bad record in a very poor Ajax team.
I know it is against better players - be we haven't currently got anyone with that strike rate.
I am fairly certain we were looking at a loan with option to buy - so it would probably not affected out P&S this season.
I don't think it is either impulsive or incompetent to not buy a player that is too expensive.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Hope you're not coming to Spain, it's pissng it down just about everywhere at the moment.

I go to Punta Prima, south of Torrevieja - the forecast is showing full sunshine from next Wednesday when I arrive for the next week or so. Fingers crossed - it stays that way

 

[DB1702]

Anyone listened to the latest price of football podcast? Keiran & friend believe our appeal is just going after the rules we think are unfair and our arguments are pretty weak.

This isn't criticism of them and there opinions as I enjoy there podcast. Only thing that confuses me is zero mention of us finding out about the promotion & COVID monies 2 weeks before the deadline. The "lazy" narrative as Robert put it is we bought to many players. Oh & it's unfair on Luton

Kieran Maguire knows his numbers on FFP but I am pretty sure he said we would get 6 points initially and when on FFTV last week he said he felt it was a 50/50 call on if we would win an appeal and when pressed said he felt we would get 1 point back. He also stated prior to us being charged on talksport his view was there would be no more points deductions this season for any clubs. So while he undoubtedly knows his FFP - to be honest any of us could guess what will happen and it is as likely to be as correct as Maguire. Pretty sure Maguire also said prior to all this we would be allowed promotion bonuses to come off our loses for FFP.

I would disagree on our appeal just going after the rules I would argue the EPL has acted at best in very bad faith towards us and have been border line negligent.

-December - we submit our predicted position on FFP to EPL
-March - we update our predicted FFP position to the EPL
-June 2nd - EPL tell us we do not except your covid and promotion bonuses which amounts to 32m so we go from having to sell a player for 2-3m to hit FFP to needing almost 35m!!! Oh and we had 28 days to do that and the window was shut until June 14th!!!

Had they told us no in December we could have tried harder to shift Johnson earlier and worked with him to get him a move. Up until June 2nd we though we were going to be okay then we are told no you are not by the EPL. Maybe that is why we got the 2 points off the 6 I would argue we should have had max been given 3 points as while we have had a major hand in this whole FFP mess so have the EPL.

If we go down by 1 2 3 or 4 points - I think Forest will take this to the courts - the downside is we would not get our place back in the EPL but should we win then the EPL would have to payout 100m+ for lose of earnings. It is a real mess and fans outside the Sky 6 clubs need to come together against the EPL - instead all they care about is staying in the EPL when the reality is they will have to sell their best players every year or risk a points deduction.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I will settle for the first 2 words - 'It is'

I am not sure that 7 in 18 is a bad record in a very poor Ajax team.
I know it is against better players - be we haven't currently got anyone with that strike rate.
I am fairly certain we were looking at a loan with option to buy - so it would probably not affected out P&S this season.
I don't think it is either impulsive or incompetent to not buy a player that is too expensive.

Regardless of what you think of Akpom, a player who was purchased for 12m only a short while back isn't going to drop below that value having scored 7 in 18 in his respective league.

I think he's a Champ level player as I think that league is mostly Champ level (if not a bit worse), but that's not the point.

The point is his value won't have dropped through having a respectable record there, and therefore it was the club's intention to buy a player valued 12m or above.

For you to turn around and then say "yeah, but we didn't buy him...good business sense!" is shortsighted, and ignores the fact that the club knew his worth prior to the enquiry and chose to go for it anyway.

The only other explanation is that they didn't know his worth, which would be even worse.

Loan-to-buy or not, the club was still being reckless, and prioritizing buying players over the financial situation. All a loan-to-buy would have done is then force us to catch up later....yet again. And then you're back to a BJ situation where it's "yeah....but we intended to sell this player!"....and hanging out for an extra 15m for MGW to cover the Akpom deal. We're already likely gonna have to sell anyway, bringing Akpom here in the Summer would have made that mountain higher and harder.

As @Strummer's apt comment suggested, it's like watching a bad gambler chasing bad bets.

 

[Forest65]

I go to Punta Prima, south of Torrevieja - the forecast is showing full sunshine from next Wednesday when I arrive for the next week or so. Fingers crossed - it stays that way

Yes, does look better from middle of next week. I'm trying to do a few things outside at the moment and need full wet weather gear just to get out of the door. The cats are really not happy either.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

You could also argue, that Forest were in need of a CF and that if it was possible to loan a player, who was scoring goals, for 6 months to see if he was capable for a minimal cost, that would represent a sensible low risk option

It was an option to buy - If he performs and is good enough you buy him, if not you send him back.
We will potentially need a replacement for the other CF that you said was shit in the Summer - Chris Wood

 

[Louth Red]

Unfortunately Richard "we" don't matter.

The PL doesn't care about fans, integrity, competition, the murkiness of some owners, grassroots football or anything like that.

It cares about money, and money alone. Progress to the PL is more money, and on that metric they are delighted with the progress over the last 30 years.

I believe that recent events with Everton and Forest demonstrate that EPL are utterly incompetent, especially since the appointment of Richard Masters as CX.

Few Forest fans would have taken interest in PL administration until two years ago. What we have witnessed in the past two years beggars belief. Whether it is broadcasting schedules, FFP, VAR, refereeing standards, or comments from Masters about little clubs, or refusing to tell the Parliamentary Committee the date of the Man City case - it’s an absolute mess.

The situation on FFP is simply the latest version of make it up as you go.

EPL is a creation of the FA. The FA is the body with responsibility for managing all football in England. It is primarily concerned with the EPL. The decisions on FA Cup replays is further proof of their obsession with EPL - no care or consideration for the rest of football. Within the EPL the focus is on the ‘elite’ clubs at the expense of the ’non-elite’.

FA is the regulator of the game in England. It has failed miserably. It is obsessed with the ‘elite’. Supporters are the last consideration.

This is why we need an Independent Regulator - it has all-party support. It will be funded by a licensing system on the 92 and the 24 National League Clubs on a sliding scale. EPL is already complaining about its contribution to the levy. This is all a smoke screen for not wanting change as it inhibits the ability of clubs - mainly the ‘elite’ and the ‘aspiring elite’ - to influence the EPL CX for decisions in their favour.

Working class supporters (and their sons and daughters) are being priced out of the game despite record revenue in the game. It’s the same with other costs of football - replica kits, food/drink etc.
Its going to get worse for traditional supporters with more price hikes on the way.

Thats my take.

 

[enlightened]

Are we expecting anything from the Everton hearing this week?

 

[YellowBelly Red]

Are we expecting anything from the Everton hearing this week?

End of next week at the earliest, I would think.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

You could also argue, that Forest were in need of a CF and that if it was possible to loan a player, who was scoring goals, for 6 months to see if he was capable for a minimal cost, that would represent a sensible low risk option

It was an option to buy - If he performs and is good enough you buy him, if not you send him back.
We will potentially need a replacement for the other CF that you said was shit in the Summer - Chris Wood

Reyna was already signed with that in mind though, allowing the likes of Elanga to play forward.

Again, another player we've signed, barely used, and who'll be costing us loan fees and wages.

But I'm expecting that again is "good business"? lol

Seeing the "give it a go" excuse used in a situation where we have to watch every penny is pretty laughable tbh. Especially when years of it nearly relegated us to L1.

 

[enlightened]

Reyna was already signed with that in mind though, allowing the likes of Elanga to play forward.

Again, another player we've signed, barely used, and who'll be costing us loan fees and wages.

But I'm expecting that again is "good business"? lol

Seeing the "give it a go" excuse used in a situation where we have to watch every penny is pretty laughable tbh. Especially when years of it nearly relegated us to L1.

I think Reyna was brought in as cover for MGW - we didn't have anyone else like him and he is our main creative force and at points this season he has looked like he might not be fully fit. So yeah - good business.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

I think Reyna was brought in as cover for MGW - we didn't have anyone else like him and he is our main creative force and at points this season he has looked like he might not be fully fit. So yeah - good business.

I was going to say exactly the same.
Reyna is not a CF, he is cover for MGW as we do not have anyone of the same level to replace him.

You can imagine the outcry on here if MGW had broken his leg and we had to play Danilo as his replacement.
EM would have been crucified for not getting any cover in - useless Geek bastard doesn't know what he's doing

 

[Flaggers]

I was going to say exactly the same.
Reyna is not a CF, he is cover for MGW as we do not have anyone of the same level to replace him.

You can imagine the outcry on here if MGW had broken his leg and we had to play Danilo as his replacement.
EM would have been crucified for not getting any cover in - useless Geek bastard doesn't know what he's doing

As with many "what-ifs" in this FFP case, a salient point is....he didn't.