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View Poll Results: How many will forest win by at the Liberty?

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  • 4-0: first time we hit more than 3 this season

    1 5.26%
  • 3-0: Grabban misses a penalty that would have made it 4

    3 15.79%
  • 2-0: Swansea park the bus after we get our 2nd

    4 21.05%
  • The unthinkable: we lose!

    11 57.89%
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Thread: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.m.

      
  1. #926
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Zac Clough, promising player from lower down

    Arter, doing well at teams much better

    Knockeart, see above

    Taylor, always looked good picked up from a team going down

    Ariyabi, brought as a promising talent did fuck all

    That's what forest can attract, on occasion big money can be paid for players like Bendtner an McCormack. Forest haven't been a big draw for a long long time. So quite rightly gambles are needed.
    Gambles, I agree. Let's look for upcoming youth though. The likes of Arter are well past their best, that's why they don't command a regular first team place.

    Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


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  3. #927
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    Thing is, you don’t have to follow Brentford‘s example of closing their own Academy facilities and then managing the playing staff via an Excel spreadsheet.

    What Forest are doing wrong, for me, is trying to buy immediate success by signing players who’ve purportedly been there and done that, in terms of getting out of the Championship, or playing at the level above.

    The problem is, by the time those players get to Forest, they’re older, they’ve peaked, and they’re not going to improve anymore, they’re only going to get worse, and their value is only going to diminish.

    Arter. Jenkinson. Blackett. Bong. Freeman. Knockaert. Colback. All supposedly quality players, signed to improve the squad. I’m sure there’s others I’ve forgotten because I’m too annoyed.

    But overall they’re all frankly crap.

    And they’ve come in on lucrative contracts, which has hammered Forest‘s finances, meaning the best and brightest of Forest‘s young players have to be sold, just to pay for the wages of the absolute wasters Forest have signed in the meantime.

    It really doesn’t have to be like this.

    Stop targeting shite journeymen. Instead, target younger, hungry players, and give them the opportunity to improve.

    Coach them (revolutionary, I know), get them playing energetic attacking football instead of the turgid defensive shit served up every week, get them playing with confidence, with no fear, to go out and absolutely take the game to their opponents, instead of standing about like shop-window dummies waiting for the other team to attack.

    Forest could do that. But they won’t because of the short-sighted approach of an ownership who thinks they can sign a few veterans and immediately buy promotion and success. That approach does not work. It never has.

    And that is why they will fail. Again. And again.
    Completely agree.

    We don't need to copy Brentford, but we do need to stop spunking so much money on players who aren't going to develop and grow with the club or increase in value.

    We need to build a side with signings like Scott McKenna; a good, hungry young player that has a good track record at a lower level. It is the kind of signing that would compliment the players that progress from our academy (our strongest asset) to our first team as well.

    Sadly, I expect the squad to be flooded with more journeymen in their late 20s/ 30s in the summer and having to sell another young talent to pay for it. And the end result will be the same as usual.


  4. #928
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    The clubs who have gotten out of this league with the best blue prints in recent years are Wolves and Leicester.

    It really is as simple as getting a really fucking rich Asian bloke to buy you and then hoping he's not a crook like the ones who took over Birmingham and Villa.
    Leicesters‘s Thai owners though, actually hired people who knew what they were doing, and they set out a philosophy and a plan as a fully defined and organised project, and it paid off. They even won the entire league in 2015! And they’re in with a shout of it this year too. Yes, they’re still casting a pall because of their behaviour around the building of their new stadium, but they’re currently providing an excellent blueprint of how smaller clubs can establish themselves, get promotion, and consolidate in the top flight.

    Wolves went shit or bust, throwing masses of money at a real quality Manager and signings from Jorge Mendes, many of who were so better than Championship level it was embarrassing.

    Forest meanwhile, haven’t got a clue what they’re doing. No vision, no policies, no organisation, no long-term plan.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    „Don't forget you're alive. 'Cause sometimes when you walk around the city and you're in a bad mood, you can think, hey, wait a minute, we're alive! We don't know what the next second will bring and what a fantastic thing this is. This can get easily forgotten in the routine of life, and that's something I'm trying to bring to my attention at all times. Don't forget you're alive. We're not dead, you know. This is the greatest thing.”

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  5. #929
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    Stop targeting shite journeymen. Instead, target younger, hungry players, and give them the opportunity to improve.
    The thing is we have done this, and they've been just as hit and miss as signing the experienced players:

    Clough, Cummings, Carvalho, Ariyibi to name but a few


    And the ones that do turn out to be decent inevitably leave for bigger clubs:

    Burke, Appiah, McKay, Cash, and probably loads more I can't remember


    I do generally agree that in recent years we've been signing too many players on a downward trajectory in their careers, but there's no one solution that's right

    But whatever the solution is we need to find it because we can't go on signing players in the manner we have over the last few years


  6. #930
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Completely agree.

    We don't need to copy Brentford, but we do need to stop spunking so much money on players who aren't going to develop and grow with the club or increase in value.

    We need to build a side with signings like Scott McKenna; a good, hungry young player that has a good track record at a lower level. It is the kind of signing that would compliment the players that progress from our academy (our strongest asset) to our first team as well.

    Sadly, I expect the squad to be flooded with more journeymen in their late 20s/ 30s in the summer and having to sell another young talent to pay for it. And the end result will be the same as usual.
    Scott McKenna is exactly the kind of player I was thinking about.

    Those are the type of footballer Forest need. Players who’ve got the best years of their career in front of them and who have potential to be developed and sold on forma healthy profit (that’s how you’ve got to do it).

    Instead, Forest target footballers whose careers are on the way down, or who’ve maybe played a few games in the top flight a couple of seasons ago.


  7. #931
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    get them playing energetic attacking football
    I don't understand this? Is this German again? What's "energetic attacking football"?


  8. #932
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    Leicesters‘s Thai owners though, actually hired people who knew what they were doing, and they set out a philosophy and a plan as a fully defined and organised project, and it paid off. They even won the entire league in 2015! And they’re in with a shout of it this year too. Yes, they’re still casting a pall because of their behaviour around the building of their new stadium, but they’re currently providing an excellent blueprint of how smaller clubs can establish themselves, get promotion, and consolidate in the top flight.

    Wolves went shit or bust, throwing masses of money at a real quality Manager and signings from Jorge Mendes, many of who were so better than Championship level it was embarrassing.

    Forest meanwhile, haven’t got a clue what they’re doing. No vision, no policies, no organisation, no long-term plan.
    There has to be luck along the way, Wolves owner pulled a blinder getting involved with Mendes when they did, sacking Paul Lambert for Nuno ended up being inspired and Leicester got lucky a lot on their way up, staying up on a prayer their first season up being the biggest catalyst (couples with some very good gambles with the likes of Mahrez and Kante).

    But you're right both have owners who have put the right people in charge. That's EMs biggest failing here, a mix match of all sorts from filmmakers to comedians, people in the wrong roles, people balancing too much work etc.


  9. #933
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
    The thing is we have done this, and they've been just as hit and miss as signing the experienced players:

    Clough, Cummings, Carvalho, Ariyibi to name but a few

    And the ones that do turn out to be decent inevitably leave for bigger clubs:

    Burke, Appiah, McKay, Cash, and probably loads more I can't remember

    I do generally agree that in recent years we've been signing too many players on a downward trajectory in their careers, but there's no one solution that's right

    But whatever the solution is we need to find it because we can't go on signing players in the manner we have over the last few years
    At this level, you’re always going to be on the verge of losing your best players. Unfortunately that’s a given.

    I am still convinced Forest aren’t doing their scouting right.

    Clough, never really impressed when I saw him. He looked too small, too lightweight. Cummings came with a reputation as a colossal bell-end and lived up to it with some aplomb.

    Carvalho I personally really feel sorry for, saddled with a ridiculous price tag that he clearly was unable to live up to. There’s a player there, but one who can really only play in one particular position, and you’d have to commit to building an entire side around him and only playing that way.

    Ariyibi, thought he had the raw materials but never seemed to show any real potential at all.

    Problem is, I think Forest tried it for maybe 1-2 windows, but didn’t do it particularly well, lost confidence and went back to signing older journeymen instead.

    Better scouting is needed. There’s players out there that the club could look at (like Scott McKenna, as in the example above) but whoever is targeting players for Forest just doesn’t seem to be up to the job.


  10. #934
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Did anyone know that elephants regulate their body heat with their ears?


  11. #935
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    You could also make the argument that in recent past we have been able to recruit from the different groups which we are talking about:

    • "a promising player from lower down" - Cohen, Tyson, Chambers, Wilson, McCleary, Moussi, Majewski, Assombalonga,
    • from... "teams much better" - Gunter, Henri,
    • Teams at our level / maybe note their first XI - Camp, Earnshaw, Blackstock, McKenna, Geddy Mk1, Antonio, Lolley,

    Obviously, I've cherry-picked but I don't think we've had many successes when buying from the Premier League, maybe because the Premier League players who will come here are probably desperate or old, otherwise they'd have better offers.

    We can pick them from lower but haven't done really since Billy left.

    Overall, recruitment is shocking when you compare the "hit and misses". That's either because of the players we can attract, or our recruitment strategy/philosophy.


  12. #936
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    I’d love to know why Conor Hourihane become available yet we didn’t sign him

    I mean how far down the road did we get if at all until we found out that he wanted to go to Swansea


  13. #937
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Part of the problem with the academy is that I see it as a business priority, not footballing. The academy is how we keep the lights on, so really we should never expect anybody to come through and actually play any significant number of games for us. Unless they're lower-championship quality at best.


  14. #938
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    I am still convinced Forest aren’t doing their scouting right.
    Agree.

    or... we're trying to do the same as everyone else, but without their money or appeal - so we end up with '12th round pick' players.

    Last edited by Collymore!; 23-01-21 at 23:18.

  15. #939
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Collymore! View Post
    Part of the problem with the academy is that I see it as a business priority, not footballing. The academy is how we keep the lights on, so really we should never expect anybody to come through and actually play any significant number of games for us. Unless they're lower-championship quality at best.
    Unfortunately I see that as football these days. Highly rated youngsters will leave and want to leave. We've all left or thought about leaving jobs to do the same thing elsewhere for more money.

    Without that production line, clubs under the "top 4" don't survive


  16. #940
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Any Time Now View Post
    Just remembered we'll most likely be seeing bong at left back for the next 3 games, deary me
    I’d have Blackett in at LB immediately. Bong wouldn’t see another first team squad along with Figueirido if I was in charge. Even Dawson would be ahead of him.


  17. #941
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Collymore! View Post
    You could also make the argument that in recent past we have been able to recruit from the different groups which we are talking about:

    • "a promising player from lower down" - Cohen, Tyson, Chambers, Wilson, McCleary, Moussi, Majewski, Assombalonga,
    • from... "teams much better" - Gunter, Henri,
    • Teams at our level / maybe note their first XI - Camp, Earnshaw, Blackstock, McKenna, Geddy Mk1, Antonio, Lolley,

    Obviously, I've cherry-picked but I don't think we've had many successes when buying from the Premier League, maybe because the Premier League players who will come here are probably desperate or old, otherwise they'd have better offers.

    We can pick them from lower but haven't done really since Billy left.

    Overall, recruitment is shocking when you compare the "hit and misses". That's either because of the players we can attract, or our recruitment strategy/philosophy.
    You're right.

    But, we signed Wilson from Preston, who came 7th in the Championship the year before, and played 21 times for them that year, when we were in League 1.


  18. #942
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve B View Post
    I’d have Blackett in at LB immediately. Bong wouldn’t see another first team squad along with Figueirido if I was in charge. Even Dawson would be ahead of him.
    Agree with that


  19. #943
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    And that's before we consider the stricter FFP rules (which we will almost certainly breach) and salary cap (which I believe is something miniscule like £2k per week).

    It won't be like last time in League One; if we go down then the squad we have next season will make our current squad like like Man City's in comparison.
    Our academy players have proven they boss league 1 (thank you Lord Gaz) whereas last time the academy produced naff all after Paul Hart's golden generation had left. The plus side of going down would be those FFP restrictions, meaning we can't bloat our squad with players that contribute little and Marinakis would be forced to change his MO.

    Chris Cohen on garibaldi red podcast said his best time at the club was his promotion from League 1, showing how positive a winning culture can be and provide a springboard if built upon correctly as Sheff Utd, Norwich, Southampton and Leicester all did.(He also said Billy was brilliant Alf).

    I'd hate to go down, but then I hate watching us currently in the Championship also.


  20. #944
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    The heartbeat of a team is its midfield. Our midfield has no quality and is ageing in all honesty.

    Yates is a decent player, but you need engines around him.. Mighten has to be a regular, no reason not to. We need more pace on the other flank, real pace, thats what hurts teams.

    Then centre mid has to be a proper footballer, who can pick a pass, win and drive the ball forward without fear.

    Up top Taylor and Grabban can do bits, the latter id bin off in the summer... but again, hunger, get someone in hungry, develop them and watch them flourish.

    Forest need hungry players who want to prove it, but have the quality to develop.


  21. #945
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    we need better wingers in the here and now , mighten will get better over time but he's currently still raw. lolley is a waste , sammy is terribly inconsistent and cannot be depended upon, only knockaert is slowly getting better and our best winger.


  22. #946

    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Apart from a brief ten minute spell at the start of the second half we were very poor, and seemed weak and feeble in every department - defence, midfield and attack. Attitude, fitness and organisation looked way off the required standard. What a colossal disappointment nearly all of the summer signings have turned out to be - Arter, Freeman, Coldlback, Bachirou, Guerrero etc, for me only McKenna has so far looked like he was worth signing. People moan about Yates and Ameobi but I'd pick them very time ahead of any of that shower that wore the shirts yesterday


  23. #947
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by garibaldi View Post
    Our academy players have proven they boss league 1 (thank you Lord Gaz) whereas last time the academy produced naff all after Paul Hart's golden generation had left. The plus side of going down would be those FFP restrictions, meaning we can't bloat our squad with players that contribute little and Marinakis would be forced to change his MO.

    Chris Cohen on garibaldi red podcast said his best time at the club was his promotion from League 1, showing how positive a winning culture can be and provide a springboard if built upon correctly as Sheff Utd, Norwich, Southampton and Leicester all did.(He also said Billy was brilliant Alf).

    I'd hate to go down, but then I hate watching us currently in the Championship also.
    My point exactly. What’s the difference in what we are currently doing now as we look set slide at any given point anyway


  24. #948
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetprince View Post
    The heartbeat of a team is its midfield. Our midfield has no quality and is ageing in all honesty.

    Yates is a decent player, but you need engines around him.. Mighten has to be a regular, no reason not to. We need more pace on the other flank, real pace, thats what hurts teams.

    Then centre mid has to be a proper footballer, who can pick a pass, win and drive the ball forward without fear.

    Up top Taylor and Grabban can do bits, the latter id bin off in the summer... but again, hunger, get someone in hungry, develop them and watch them flourish.

    Forest need hungry players who want to prove it, but have the quality to develop.
    Yates is the engine. You need players around him


  25. #949
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by garibaldi View Post
    Our academy players have proven they boss league 1 (thank you Lord Gaz) whereas last time the academy produced naff all after Paul Hart's golden generation had left. The plus side of going down would be those FFP restrictions, meaning we can't bloat our squad with players that contribute little and Marinakis would be forced to change his MO.

    Chris Cohen on garibaldi red podcast said his best time at the club was his promotion from League 1, showing how positive a winning culture can be and provide a springboard if built upon correctly as Sheff Utd, Norwich, Southampton and Leicester all did.(He also said Billy was brilliant Alf).

    I'd hate to go down, but then I hate watching us currently in the Championship also.
    Problem with that is that we have no chance of keeping hold of any half decent players (including our academy players) due to the comically low wage cap, which means that even the smallest clubs in the Championship can offer 4-5 times what Forest would be allowed to offer players in League One (which I believe is around £2k per week).

    Imagine being in League One, having a quality young player break through (that either came through the academy or was signed from another club), only to have their head turned by someone like Barnsley offering to quadruple their wages? That's the sort of future we'd be looking at in League One.

    We'd also almost certainly fail League One's stricter FFP rules, meaning we'd probably be starting the season with a points deduction and a transfer embargo.

    If we got relegated, we'd be more likely to drop into League Two rather than bounce back into the Championship. It would be a very, very long time before we were a Championship club again.


  26. #950
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    Default Re: Official FA Cup Thread: Swansea v Nottingham Forest; Saturday 23rd Jan 2021; 3 p.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Problem with that is that we have no chance of keeping hold of any half decent players (including our academy players) due to the comically low wage cap, which means that even the smallest clubs in the Championship can offer 4-5 times what Forest would be allowed to offer players in League One (which I believe is around £2k per week).

    Imagine being in League One, having a quality young player break through (that either came through the academy or was signed from another club), only to have their head turned by someone like Barnsley offering to quadruple their wages? That's the sort of future we'd be looking at in League One.

    We'd also almost certainly fail League One's stricter FFP rules, meaning we'd probably be starting the season with a points deduction and a transfer embargo.

    If we got relegated, we'd be more likely to drop into League Two rather than bounce back into the Championship. It would be a very, very long time before we were a Championship club again.
    Oi!
    Senior Doommonger is my job... and there isn't a vacancy.
    Dinsdale and doug will be around if you keep on with this sort of thing


 

 

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