Alex Mowatt

[It's Baggio]

If you've convinced yourself that only players that you suggest should be signed, well fair enough, it's your prerogative.

I wouldn't go that far but it would be a start.

Obviously, I'm being slightly tongue-in-cheek. However, even if only 50% of Taylor's article the other day is correct then we have (or had?) a recruitment process that is either inept or downright lazy and the subsequent results are no surprise.

[Advert Break]

[RealRed85]

When he comes out of choir

Why do you keep implying he’s really young? He’s 26 next month


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[GandalfTheRed]

I don't think the scant few successes are the focus, Gandalf, it's that we probably sign 5 or 6 players who are misses for every one that's a hit. So we're successively bloating the bomb squad (even as players leave by seeing out their contract) by adding quantity instead of quality. This has been said for many years. I guess it's the way we operate because of the lack of parachute payments, but there are examples of teams - Leeds, Brentford, Sheff Utd, etc - who have proved it's possible to do it a different way.

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I don’t disagree with any of that mate, but I don’t think that was the conversation at hand. It was along the lines of managers should be making the signings, not having players scouted and brought for him by somebody else ie Modesto and Angio (or whatever his name was).

And the only reason I pointed to those examples is because Alf specifically asked where has it worked. Despite all the crap we have signed, there have been some good players picked up during that period too. There has to be some balance to the argument.

We all want to see an end to top youngsters being sold off to pay the wages of a old and expensive squad, I think that is pretty common across all Forest fans.

But as fans we also have to accept that sometimes signings just don’t come off. On the face of it a trio of Colback, Arter and Freeman is a really exciting prospect on paper. When we signed them I don’t think there was a fan out there who’d turn their noses up at any of them. Now? Most fans would happily drive them to a new club if we could get shut tomorrow. Things could change the second half of the season and fingers crossed all three start to shine and we pull ourselves away from the bottom end of the table.


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[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I initially wrote a long post, but I deleted it because to be honest, it wears me down coming in here.

Those three players signed were integral to a side that finished 7th. I will take that 'average' costing around £2m every day of the week.
The whole point of systems is to put players in a position to be successful. That's the whole point.
You aren't speculating on transfers, it is just a vacuum of you repeating a narrative.
It isn't the 'modern way'. It is the way clubs operate these days. You are arguing against the way modern football is done, it isn't a unique way to Nottingham Forest.

"Wearing you down?" Mate, if it's wearing you down you're taking it far too seriously and need to a breather.

As I've said many a time, IMO that 7th finish was most down to several top 6 players in the likes of Cash, Watson & for half a season Daws - none of whom recruitment signed - and a good manager having a good season with a system that suited him. Other than Samba, NONE of the players we've signed in the past 3 windows would get anywhere near a top 6 side. Cash, Watson, Worrall, Grabban, Lolley - they're you're top 6 players. All either academy products, or signed by managers.

Sis we sign some OK players? Yes, hence the 6/10 rating for the summer. Samba is a good goalie, and Sow, Silva & Ribs all payed their part. But we signed 15 players last year, only 1 IMO would get in a top 6 side in Samba. For a side that is supposedly all about promotion, that's frankly shite.

And I'M repeating myself?!?!? All I ever here on here is from many posters is "Every other club does it, let's do it too!" It's bollocks, almost every other club gets nowhere doing it too. NFFC should do what's right for NFFC, regardless of trends or fads. And the simple fact is the past 3 windows have seen WAY more dross signed than good. This cub was once great because it broke the mold, not conformed to it. The fact that we haven't the bottle to so the same now shows that we are weak, and is one of the reasons why we continuously fail.

I know I'm going to regret asking you this Alf, but where do you stand on Modesto competing the recruitment process of players recommended by the-then Head Coach (last January - Diakhabi and Da Costa; last summer - Freeman, Taylor, Bachirou, Arter and Guerrero)?

I think that again highlights why the coach model is flawed, and why a proper manager is what's required for our club. It's speculative to say who out of Modesto & Lamouchi sourced which players, but they were either too shit for the job, or signed too late for what was required (e.g. Taylor & Freeman should have arrived Jan 2020, not in the Summer).

Ultimately it paints a pretty damning picture on our overall setup, and we can only hope that Brazil & Hughton's influence helps carry the failures of Modesto from here on.

[Cortez the Killer]

Ignoring Leeds being a bigger club who were able to attract and afford one of the best coaches in the world, the "different way" is:

Leeds - appointed a top class coach.
Sheff U - excellent manager who was able to get the most of of players who'd been a 'miss' elsewhere.
Brentford - a different way. Scrapped their academy, sign foreign players based on numbers and sell a few every season to balance the books. A relative success.

So appointing a good manager seems key. Unless you go the moneyball route and stick to it for 5 years.

What about other clubs of a similar current size to Forest - Derby, Sheff Wed, Bristol C, Birmingham. How are they faring with the whole trying to maximise limited funds whilst being competitive thing?

Ravi, you've made your usual error of jumping to conclusions by assuming I'm attacking the club. Calm down, mate. I clearly pointed out that it is difficult for non-parachute payment clubs to achieve success, and offered 3 examples of clubs who managed it, all of whom you agreed with. The need to point out that the performance of the other non-parachute payment clubs is no better than us actually reinforces my initial point.

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[Ravi]

Ravi, you've made your usual error of jumping to conclusions by assuming I'm attacking the club. Calm down, mate. I clearly pointed out that it is difficult for non-parachute payment clubs to achieve success, and offered 3 examples of clubs who managed it, all of whom you agreed with. The need to point out that the performance of the other non-parachute payment clubs is no better than us actually reinforces my initial point.

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I am calm mate, and apologies if I misunderstood your post and conflated your view with the ongoing theme about recruitment. The point of including those other clubs was to show that these problems aren’t unique to Forest. All these clubs struggle to get the most out of similar sized incomes and wage bills. I agree it’s (increasingly) difficult for non-parachute clubs to achieve success, and other than Brentford, appointing a good manager seems to be the one consistent factor.

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I am calm mate, and apologies if I misunderstood your post and conflated your view with the ongoing theme about recruitment. The point of including those other clubs was to show that these problems aren’t unique to Forest. All these clubs struggle to get the most out of similar sized incomes and wage bills. I agree it’s (increasingly) difficult for non-parachute clubs to achieve success, and other than Brentford, appointing a good manager seems to be the one consistent factor.

Here's the thing Rav.

We here these a lot:
"it's not unique to Forest."
"every other club has XYZ issues."
"it's the norm"

At what point do folk start to grasp that the norm is failure, and that the majority of these clubs don't get promoted either.

The clubs in our position who do are the ones who break away from these "normalities", and who don't accept being part of the crowd.

We should be looking to innovate, not follow like sheep. All we've done is copy trends, and it's got us nowhere.

Easier said than done I know, but I think we'd stand a far better chance of doing well if we looked at our natural strengths and built on them.

Namely things like our academy, and connections like Pearce who's name opens many doors (esp into places like the England youth setup). Rather than thinking foreign league contacts is the way to go.

[Strummer]

I am not by any means a maths genius, but in the Championship, with 24 clubs and only three able to gain promotion to the division above, that means 21 of them „fail“ every season, if your only barometer is „promotion“?

So, in that respect, „failure“ is absolutely the most common result.

[Haych]

I’m not trying to get at anyone when I say this.

It annoys me when people say well this club makes the same mistakes etc, I don’t want Nottingham Forest to be like x club I want us to do this correct and be successful, I want us to win every game 8-0, yes it’s unrealistic but being the best should always be the goal.

[Otis Redd'un]

I think that again highlights why the coach model is flawed, and why a proper manager is what's required for our club. It's speculative to say who out of Modesto & Lamouchi sourced which players, but they were either too shit for the job, or signed too late for what was required (e.g. Taylor & Freeman should have arrived Jan 2020, not in the Summer).

No offence, but you're wrong mate.

The coach/manager issue is pure semantics in my question to you. Whether a football club follows the traditional British method or not, the manager (or coach) does not actually go through the process of actually recruiting a player of his choice; a recruitment team will be responsible for dealing with the various complexities of securing the player.

The image of a player turning up at the City Ground and waiting for Brian Clough to return from playing squash before sitting-down with him to agree personal terms and sign on the dotted-line is the stuff of nostalgia, sadly.

I'd argue that signing Taylor last January would have been far more difficult and expensive than you imply it would. You can add your own numbers to a minimum 7-figure-fee to persuade Charlton to sell us their top striker. As for Freeman, you can't force a club to loan a player, irrespective of what might be offered as a loan fee. Had he gone elsewhere, I would probably have agreed with you.

[Carlos]

Just popping by to see if there's anything more about this player. It seems most player threads are like those ball things you see on office desks, the constant click click of balls bouncing off of each other.

I think it's clear that everyone has issues with the club, 90% of the threads contain the same shite. Not many have come up with a solution or a way forward though.

[Haych]

Just popping by to see if there's anything more about this player. It seems most player threads are like those ball things you see in office desks, the constant click click of balls bouncing off of each other.

I think it's clear that everyone has issues with the club, 90% of the threads contain the same shite. Not many have come up with a solution or a way forward though.

It wouldn’t be LTLF if we didn’t turn every thread into the same discussion

[Notcher]

Just popping by to see if there's anything more about this player. It seems most player threads are like those ball things you see in office desks, the constant click click of balls bouncing off of each other.

I think it's clear that everyone has issues with the club, 90% of the threads contain the same shite. Not many have come up with a solution or a way forward though.

I think the recruitment thread has potential for the best discussion on this mate. I put my bit forward near the top and I think a few others have contributed.

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[Carlos]

I think the recruitment thread has potential for the best discussion on this mate. I put my bit forward near the top and I think a few others have contributed.

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I know mate, it was a great idea for a thread. If it happened there I could ignore and not read the same things over and over again

[Ravi]

Here's the thing Rav.

We here these a lot:
"it's not unique to Forest."
"every other club has XYZ issues."
"it's the norm"

At what point do folk start to grasp that the norm is failure, and that the majority of these clubs don't get promoted either.

The clubs in our position who do are the ones who break away from these "normalities", and who don't accept being part of the crowd.

We should be looking to innovate, not follow like sheep. All we've done is copy trends, and it's got us nowhere.

Easier said than done I know, but I think we'd stand a far better chance of doing well if we looked at our natural strengths and built on them.

Namely things like our academy, and connections like Pearce who's name opens many doors (esp into places like the England youth setup). Rather than thinking foreign league contacts is the way to go.

The point of comparing is to provide context. Some talk as if Forest exists in a bubble, and that all the problems are of the club’s own making, but the main challenge is how does a bang average Championship club with average income like ourselves compete with the richer clubs in the division. It isn’t easy. There’s a reason that if you compare wage bill and finishing league positions there’s virtually a one to one correlation. Better players cost more money.

I completely agree we need to innovate and try something different. We can’t compete by spending the most. We will finish mid table every season all other things being equal. I think the experiment with Mr super agent was at least a (failed) attempt to try something different. Signing foreign players is another attempt to maximise resources because British players are overpriced both in transfer fees and relatively high wages. Some complain about the high turnover of players, but again, at least the club is trying something different.

The academy does an excellent job of providing income and squad players, plus a few stand out first teamers, but other than the shift to cat1 it’s hard to see how it could be improved further. We are playing to our strengths in that area.

[Notcher]

I know mate, it was a great idea for a thread. If it happened there I could ignore and not read the same things over and over again

Ain't that the truth

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[Carlos]

Off to slap the otter anyway. I'll pop back into this thread if I lack a brick wall to bang my head against later.

[Strummer]

Off to slap the otter anyway. I'll pop back into this thread if I lack a brick wall to bang my head against later.

We‘ll see you in about 30 seconds then mate?

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The point of comparing is to provide context. Some talk as if Forest exists in a bubble, and that all the problems are of the club’s own making, but the main challenge is how does a bang average Championship club with average income like ourselves compete with the richer clubs in the division. It isn’t easy. There’s a reason that if you compare wage bill and finishing league positions there’s virtually a one to one correlation. Better players cost more money.

I completely agree we need to innovate and try something different. We can’t compete by spending the most. We will finish mid table every season all other things being equal. I think the experiment with Mr super agent was at least a (failed) attempt to try something different. Signing foreign players is another attempt to maximise resources because British players are overpriced both in transfer fees and relatively high wages. Some complain about the high turnover of players, but again, at least the club is trying something different.

The academy does an excellent job of providing income and squad players, plus a few stand out first teamers, but other than the shift to cat1 it’s hard to see how it could be improved further. We are playing to our strengths in that area.

Agreed mate, very good post.

We'll get there

[Carlos]

We‘ll see you in about 30 seconds then mate?

Yep done now, it was as underwhelming as match day.

[Statto]

Why do you keep implying he’s really young? He’s 26 next month


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Read the quote carefully? Also, it was more a reference to the fact the rest of their team is really young lol

[Cortez the Killer]

I am calm mate, and apologies if I misunderstood your post and conflated your view with the ongoing theme about recruitment. The point of including those other clubs was to show that these problems aren’t unique to Forest. All these clubs struggle to get the most out of similar sized incomes and wage bills. I agree it’s (increasingly) difficult for non-parachute clubs to achieve success, and other than Brentford, appointing a good manager seems to be the one consistent factor.

In this, I wholly agree.

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[Ravi]

...appointing a good manager seems to be the one consistent factor.


#Hughton

[Wolser]

...appointing a good manager seems to be the one consistent factor.


#Hughton

Hoofed our way to another boring 1-0 today

[Lee]

Darren Pratley anyone?