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  1. #76
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Benali (on loan) View Post
    Hart was hired during a fire sale most likely because he was cheap, and nobody knew the young players we had no choice but to rely on better than him.

    In 2002-03 we scored more goals at home than any other team in the country. Fantastic entertainment. Easily my favourite season since 94-95 and more enjoyable than anything since. There was an ex Forest with a respect for the clubs past playing entertaining football with academy graduates. It felt good. Nobody had any right to expect he would do half as well as he did.

    He may have inherited Johnson, Scimeca, Brennan, Louis-Jean. But the first two were considered expensive flops until they became two of the best players in the division under Hart's management. And bringing Walker back to partner Dawson was a masterstroke that others wouldn't have done.

    Johnson was then given, I believe (this is how it remember it being reported) a 6k contract breaking the 4k ceiling put in place because the near financial oblivion that Forest found themselves in before they appointed Hart. Harewood, or his agent, thought his season justified an improved contract too (and it probably did). Forest didn't budge and that is the reason, it was reported at the time, that Harewood was then open to offers from elsewhere. He didn't want to leave Forest as such, just financial circumstances out of Hart's control. Nobody could argue that Harewood didn't make the right career move.

    Hart's team tore Norwich apart, and Worthington then picked up Huckerby and Brennan because we couldn't compete with the wages Norwich offered. Hart put together a team that were capable of promotion within a couple of years from nowhere really and Norwich were the team that got promoted off the back of it. For good measure Worthington later came back for Ward and Louis-Jean too. I think Hart's team left an impression.

    Johnson started the next season well enough. We might even have gone top when we beat Sheffield United early on. Then he broke his leg. Lester was released to reduce the wage bill too as he was signed under Platt. So Johnson, Harewood, Huckerby, Lester all gone and all out of Hart's control. Unsurprisingly we ended up on a run of games without scoring and Hart was sacked. At the time I think Chopra was in on loan. He obviously came good in the Championship, wasn't the worst person to bring in.

    We ended up with Kinnear who came in with Forest in 22nd in Feb 04 and left with Forest in 22nd in Dec 04. Playing with Daryl Powell and Paul Evans. Attacking figures who were part of, or anyone who mentioned, Forest's history. It felt bad.

    Yes we did have Chopra on loan, and he was pretty shocking too. Powell was a M***on signing so you can't blame Kinnear for him.

    Largely agree with you on Hart. The team he did build on basically nothing was something special with a whole load of kids and even Walker returning, never rated Ward but he was a Notts lad too.

    But you would have known that the Platt signings were too expensive to renew. I guess that is why they brought Oyen to replace Brennan on the cheap, and he was a decent player but was always injured (seem to used that time chasing muff and making squawkies though lol), that didn't work out, so we had to rely on Robertson; nor did replacing Scimeca with Stewart, Sonner or Gunnarsson, this is all standard succession planning which we never do.

    Same season they repeated the mistakes agsin with Louis-Jean (I think he went then) and Williams leaving, we tried to replace with Adam Nowland, and brought in Commons and James, though Commons was decent for us for some reason Kinnear didn't play him much but we did at least finish that season well.

    But the lack of any coherent transfer strategy was always an issue with ND/MA, we couldn't afford 300k on Robbie Blake, who was doing well for us, yet he brought in Johnson for 3.5m a few weeks later and he did nothing for us for 18 months. And we did plenty of the same with Billy when we didn't get Shorey who would surely have got us up.


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  3. #77
    Francis Benali (on loan)
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    I don't think it can be argued that Paul Hart was a brilliant football manager everywhere he went. His managerial record suggests not. But he was the perfect fit for Forest in the situation we were in when there had to be a reliance on the youth players he knew. It worked better than anyone could have anticipated it would. He built a very young exciting side that would have got promoted had Forest kept the nucleus together but we couldn't. Easy to understand why, because Forest were in a mess financially. But he was very unlucky. Perhaps he could have got a but more help with keeping one or two players, with hindsight eighteen years on and still no closer. And if not, I thought he had at least done enough to earn more time. Thought that at the time, but again with hindsight we went down a year later anyway so hard to argue the change of manager worked.


  4. #78
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post
    I have literally no recollection of Davy Oyen
    Davy Oyen doesn't remember Davy Oyen's playing career.


  5. #79
    Best served cold
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-engelos Mindminackers View Post
    Aye. It's frankly astounding that people like Marthur & EM/Vrentroz looked at those sides losing their best goalscorers, and thought that without replacing them to at least the same quality we should be expecting a promotion challenge

    We really have been run by some idiots over the years.
    In regards to Warburton though - that's what some folks want isn't it? The manager to pick the signings. One of the chief complaints has been Vrentos getting involved and not leaving it to the manager. The one time he did, and the manager/his DOF were restrained with signings and bought the cheap, young players from the lower leagues everyone demands we sign and he's criticised for that too.

    If the complaint is that signings under his watch weren't good enough then that's fair, but it's a bit rich of us to constantly criticise him for being too involved and then for not sticking his oar in.


    You are totally right about Marthur though. Good grief. The amount of opportunities the club threw away during that period in letting players go and not replacing them. It should be a cautionary tale not just to owners here but of other clubs.

    Last edited by incapable hulk; 21-06-21 at 12:53.
    "I've been blessed with many things in this life: an arm like a damn rocket, a c**k like a burmese python, and the mind of a f**king scientist" - Kenny Powers

  6. #80
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post
    I have literally no recollection of Davy Oyen
    Cheap Jim Brennan replacement.

    Think we beat Sunderland first game of the season with him starting.

    Still remember our transfer business after Paul Hart & his young pups losing in the play-offs.

    Frees Brynjar Gunnarsson, Davy Oyen (think he first came on trial - remember when that used to happen lol)& Danny Sonner. Plus Michael Stewart on loan. I mean...

    Thing is, Davy was actually decent in his handful of games but his body couldn't hold up so he hardly played. Belgium international after all.


  7. #81
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Statto View Post
    Can he play... (Well, his dad did)

    Edit: Sam Beasant was also a keeper like his dad, but didn't really get into the league...
    Early to say but he is a Belgian U19 international (attacking midfielder) & scored for them this season and according to transfermkt is valued at 3m at 18 which is more than the majority of our squad

    Belgian First Division is a perfect development league that finds balance between technique/physicality & he got 17 appearances this season for a top club like Genk.


  8. #82
    They see me trollin'
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
    You said he was right, which was what I was disagreeing with
    How can you disagree with that? The club was being run by the shadiest bastards i've seen near Forest in my lifetime. I literally can't see how anyone at all can disagree with that.

    Striking on the other hand, was a dick move which backfired completely.


  9. #83
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    I remember Oyen as looking like a decent footballer but there was a reason he was knocking about on a free, he kept breaking all the time.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  10. #84
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    Cheap Jim Brennan replacement.

    Think we beat Sunderland first game of the season with him starting.

    Still remember our transfer business after Paul Hart & his young pups losing in the play-offs.

    Frees Brynjar Gunnarsson, Davy Oyen (think he first came on trial - remember when that used to happen lol)& Danny Sonner. Plus Michael Stewart on loan. I mean...

    Thing is, Davy was actually decent in his handful of games but his body couldn't hold up so he hardly played. Belgium international after all.
    Yes,I feared the worst whilst returning from Sheffield the morning after the play-off defeat.
    I was sitting in traffic on the M1 and tuned into Radio Nottingham near Mansfield at 10.00-the headline news
    was Marthur saying 'we are dealing with reality now',which was code for the team is being dismantled.
    2 years later we were in the 3rd division.....


  11. #85
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post
    I have literally no recollection of Davy Oyen
    Wasn't he in the Monkeys?


  12. #86

    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by incapable hulk View Post
    In regards to Warburton though - that's what some folks want isn't it? The manager to pick the signings. One of the chief complaints has been Vrentos getting involved and not leaving it to the manager. The one time he did, and the manager/his DOF were restrained with signings and bought the cheap, young players from the lower leagues everyone demands we sign and he's criticised for that too.

    If the complaint is that signings under his watch weren't good enough then that's fair, but it's a bit rich of us to constantly criticise him for being too involved and then for not sticking his oar in.


    You are totally right about Marthur though. Good grief. The amount of opportunities the club threw away during that period in letting players go and not replacing them. It should be a cautionary tale not just to owners here but of other clubs.
    Warbs had 15m worth of players sold, and was only allowed to reinvest 5m though Hulk, and had to attract players to a club expected to fight relegation.

    I don't think that's a fair yardstick to judge that window on, and never have. We went for cheap, more make-do players to get us out of a whole and move us forward coz we had to.

    It worked, and the next step was to build on that. Vrentroz tore it all down before we had chance too because of unrealistic expectations, and started the drive to expand the wage bill, get rid of our Prem quality academy players, and make life as difficult for the club in 2020 as possible.

    I sawa lot of similarities between Marthur & Vrentroz. The big difference is EM might be learning by changing the man in that position. So I'm actually quite hopefully. This now could be what should have happened 20 odd years ago


  13. #87
    Bob McKinlay
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    Wasn't he in the Monkeys?
    I‘m a believer so.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    „Don't forget you're alive. 'Cause sometimes when you walk around the city and you're in a bad mood, you can think, hey, wait a minute, we're alive! We don't know what the next second will bring and what a fantastic thing this is. This can get easily forgotten in the routine of life, and that's something I'm trying to bring to my attention at all times. Don't forget you're alive. We're not dead, you know. This is the greatest thing.”

    — Joe Strummer

  14. #88
    oopsy daisy!
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    I was sitting in traffic on the M1 and tuned into Radio Nottingham near Mansfield at 10.00-the headline news
    was Marthur saying 'we are dealing with reality now',which was code for the team is being dismantled.
    2 years later we were in the 3rd division.....
    Yes, but we were run properly back then and the dismantling of that team helped Mark Arthur take a staggering £120000 a week loss into a much more manageable £6.5m a year whilst we slid into division 3.


  15. #89
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-engelos Mindminackers View Post
    Warbs had 15m worth of players sold, and was only allowed to reinvest 5m though Hulk, and had to attract players to a club expected to fight relegation.

    I don't think that's a fair yardstick to judge that window on, and never have. We went for cheap, more make-do players to get us out of a whole and move us forward coz we had to.

    It worked, and the next step was to build on that. Vrentroz tore it all down before we had chance too because of unrealistic expectations, and started the drive to expand the wage bill, get rid of our Prem quality academy players, and make life as difficult for the club in 2020 as possible.

    I sawa lot of similarities between Marthur & Vrentroz. The big difference is EM might be learning by changing the man in that position. So I'm actually quite hopefully. This now could be what should have happened 20 odd years ago
    One things for sure we have tried umpteen different "models" over that 20 year period and none of them have worked for anything more than a 6 month period. We've never managed to move with the times quickly enough to give ourselves a chance IMO and I sincerely hope that a "moneyball" approach might give us a punchers chance over the next few seasons, if its given a chance and isn't pulled apart by the kids. I also think that Hughton is mature enough to accept that approach and do he's best with what we can get rather than stropping...


  16. #90
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Sydney Van Hooijdonk

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-engelos Mindminackers View Post
    Warbs had 15m worth of players sold, and was only allowed to reinvest 5m though Hulk, and had to attract players to a club expected to fight relegation.

    I don't think that's a fair yardstick to judge that window on, and never have. We went for cheap, more make-do players to get us out of a whole and move us forward coz we had to.

    It worked, and the next step was to build on that. Vrentroz tore it all down before we had chance too because of unrealistic expectations, and started the drive to expand the wage bill, get rid of our Prem quality academy players, and make life as difficult for the club in 2020 as possible.

    I sawa lot of similarities between Marthur & Vrentroz. The big difference is EM might be learning by changing the man in that position. So I'm actually quite hopefully. This now could be what should have happened 20 odd years ago
    Not to dispute the wider point you're making, but in fairness, Warburton lost post-knee injury Assombalonga, who was a shadow of the player we had. We lost Britt under Freedman the day his knee went.

    I'm still amazed that Boro paid £15m for him after that awful injury.

    While the club received that money, and Warburton didn't reinvest it all, I'd strongly argue that framing it as losing £15m worth of player isn't the most accurate metric.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

    Last edited by Project Zeus; 22-06-21 at 12:08.

 

 

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