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  1. #22801
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    I'm gonna tell my Grandkids that Javid was Boba Fett.


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  3. #22802
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Would that make Boris Jabba?

    "Ive only met Andy....last week actually and can confirm he is in 2nd place in sexiest fucker on here stakes." -Barry

  4. #22803
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OK SpidermAndy! View Post
    Where my OH works has said if you have to isolate and haven't had the jabs, without a medical exemption them they're only paying ssp, seems fair to me.

    Have the jab or don't, your choice but don't complain about the consequences of your choices.
    But there is a world of difference between choosing the vaccine or not choosing the vaccine and that suddenly becoming getting paid x or getting paid y. 2 people off for the same thing but getting paid different rates dependent on a medical record is totally unethical.

    Then let's look at the NHS

    If you're working within the NHS as a clinician do you not think it's utterly ridiculous we were asking these people to put themselves directly in the face (quite literally) of the virus when there was no vaccination, no data and quite significantly back in early 2020 a lack of any measures of worthiness at all and take that risk to now not have the choice to continue taking that risk anyway.

    It's a complete moral dilemma that goes, in my view, way beyond "just accept the consequences" coercing individuals into administering medicine on themselves, and that's exactly what this is when you're putting peoples incomes on the line, flies in the face of basic medical ethics in this country and a number of states. It's totally wrong on so many levels to me.

    That's before you consider what the adjusted impact on the health service will be. We've spent a number of years highlighting quite rightly, the lack of resource and labour shortages in it and we are putting ourselves in a position where we are worsening the issue and what's the adjusted impact on the quality and safety of our healthcare and our access to services that we are told daily is stretched to the limit as it is?

    Vaccination protects you and your consideration on whether to choose it should, in my view not extend beyond any health benefit/risk to you and you alone. Getting any medical treatment to yourself for the benefit of anyone else is totally unethical anyway, as well as a completely flawed theory in my mind.

    There's a lot of words there but fundamentally it comes down to one thing. If your put into a position by external forces that considerations are anything other than your health and wellbeing about any medical treatment, that is completely and utterly wrong. I am staggered that medicine, the government and a large section of the wider public think that's remotely OK.

    Last edited by SLM92NF; 14-01-22 at 08:00.

  5. #22804
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    There's a lot of words there
    You got that bit right.


  6. #22805
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    But there is a world of difference between choosing the vaccine or not choosing the vaccine and that suddenly becoming getting paid x or getting paid y. 2 people off for the same thing but getting paid different rates dependent on a medical record is totally unethical.

    Then let's look at the NHS

    If you're working within the NHS as a clinician do you not think it's utterly ridiculous we were asking these people to put themselves directly in the face (quite literally) of the virus when there was no vaccination, no data and quite significantly back in early 2020 a lack of any measures of worthiness at all and take that risk to now not have the choice to continue taking that risk anyway.

    It's a complete moral dilemma that goes, in my view, way beyond "just accept the consequences" coercing individuals into administering medicine on themselves, and that's exactly what this is when you're putting peoples incomes on the line, flies in the face of basic medical ethics in this country and a number of states. It's totally wrong on so many levels to me.

    That's before you consider what the adjusted impact on the health service will be. We've spent a number of years highlighting quite rightly, the lack of resource and labour shortages in it and we are putting ourselves in a position where we are worsening the issue and what's the adjusted impact on the quality and safety of our healthcare and our access to services that we are told daily is stretched to the limit as it is?

    Vaccination protects you and your consideration on whether to choose it should, in my view not extend beyond any health benefit/risk to you and you alone. Getting any medical treatment to yourself for the benefit of anyone else is totally unethical anyway, as well as a completely flawed theory in my mind.

    There's a lot of words there but fundamentally it comes down to one thing. If your put into a position by external forces that considerations are anything other than your health and wellbeing about any medical treatment, that is completely and utterly wrong. I am staggered that medicine, the government and a large section of the wider public think that's remotely OK.
    My son spent 5 months in hospital last year so I was speaking to many NHS workers during that time, and the subject of Covid was a major topic. Not one of the hundreds of staff I talked to knew a single NHS worker who was refusing the vaccine. Expanded across the UK I imagine the figure is miniscule. If the staff shortages in the NHS are critical, it has little to do with Covid and far more to do with Brexit and the last decade of Tory government.

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  7. #22806
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez the Killer View Post
    My son spent 5 months in hospital last year so I was speaking to many NHS workers during that time, and the subject of Covid was a major topic. Not one of the hundreds of staff I talked to knew a single NHS worker who was refusing the vaccine. Expanded across the UK I imagine the figure is miniscule. If the staff shortages in the NHS are critical, it has little to do with Covid and far more to do with Brexit and the last decade of Tory government.

    Sent from my SM-A920F using Tapatalk
    No doubt but compounding the issue further isn't exactly helping the cause is it.


  8. #22807
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    No doubt but compounding the issue further isn't exactly helping the cause is it.
    Yeah, just let people do what the fuck they want. As long as we can staff hospitals it doesn't matter if they're putting other people at risk. In fact why limit people who work in medicine to those who've studied modern medicine? Surely, if there's an arbitrary line in the sand where they think modern medicine doesn't work or whatever then we should be hiring shamen and witch doctors. I reckon I could be a brain surgeon, gotta be a piece of piss after refurbing a bank of four carburettors


  9. #22808
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    But there is a world of difference between choosing the vaccine or not choosing the vaccine and that suddenly becoming getting paid x or getting paid y. 2 people off for the same thing but getting paid different rates dependent on a medical record is totally unethical.

    Then let's look at the NHS

    If you're working within the NHS as a clinician do you not think it's utterly ridiculous we were asking these people to put themselves directly in the face (quite literally) of the virus when there was no vaccination, no data and quite significantly back in early 2020 a lack of any measures of worthiness at all and take that risk to now not have the choice to continue taking that risk anyway.

    It's a complete moral dilemma that goes, in my view, way beyond "just accept the consequences" coercing individuals into administering medicine on themselves, and that's exactly what this is when you're putting peoples incomes on the line, flies in the face of basic medical ethics in this country and a number of states. It's totally wrong on so many levels to me.

    That's before you consider what the adjusted impact on the health service will be. We've spent a number of years highlighting quite rightly, the lack of resource and labour shortages in it and we are putting ourselves in a position where we are worsening the issue and what's the adjusted impact on the quality and safety of our healthcare and our access to services that we are told daily is stretched to the limit as it is?

    Vaccination protects you and your consideration on whether to choose it should, in my view not extend beyond any health benefit/risk to you and you alone. Getting any medical treatment to yourself for the benefit of anyone else is totally unethical anyway, as well as a completely flawed theory in my mind.

    There's a lot of words there but fundamentally it comes down to one thing. If your put into a position by external forces that considerations are anything other than your health and wellbeing about any medical treatment, that is completely and utterly wrong. I am staggered that medicine, the government and a large section of the wider public think that's remotely OK.
    Some valid points there.

    Many places online are not open to that discussion though, or any discussion at all that doesn’t fit with popular opinion.

    You have been cancelled. Goodbye.


  10. #22809
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Gunn View Post
    Some valid points there.

    Many places online are not open to that discussion though, or any discussion at all that doesnít fit with popular opinion.

    You have been cancelled. Goodbye.
    They aren't valid points though, they're nonsense.

    The vaccine has been tested to the same level as every other vaccine. The vaccine will massively reduce the risks to you and those you love of getting seriously ill or dying. There is no nuance here, no subtext, no conspiracy plots.

    You either wake up and smell the coffee or you become the problem.

    Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.

  11. #22810
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    I don't understand why people accept that to travel to certain countries for a week's holiday they have to have certain vaccinations, and yet they can't get why we need vaccinations to help curtail a global pandemic that has, for the last two years, grounded the entire planet.

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  12. #22811
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez the Killer View Post
    I don't understand why people accept that to travel to certain countries for a week's holiday they have to have certain vaccinations, and yet they can't get why we need vaccinations to help curtail a global pandemic that has, for the last two years, grounded the entire planet.

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    Selfishness, entitlement and the Internet.


  13. #22812
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OK SpidermAndy! View Post
    Yeah, just let people do what the fuck they want. As long as we can staff hospitals it doesn't matter if they're putting other people at risk. In fact why limit people who work in medicine to those who've studied modern medicine? Surely, if there's an arbitrary line in the sand where they think modern medicine doesn't work or whatever then we should be hiring shamen and witch doctors. I reckon I could be a brain surgeon, gotta be a piece of piss after refurbing a bank of four carburettors
    Not what the fuck they want, just the freedom to choose whether or not they choose to administer medicine on themselves without undue pressure. The cornerstone of medical ethics for a number of years, quite rightly.

    You're forgetting on an individual level, vaccinating yourself protects yourself. We've had the opportunity to take the vaccine, I'm assuming given the rather dramatic hysteria at the idea of allowing people not to vaccinate, you've mitigated the risk for yourself as best as you feel you can. But it's none of my business whether you have or not, and it's none of ours whether staff in a healthcare setting have as well.

    Protect yourself and don't expect others to accommodate your own medical concerns, that's what I feel I chose to do when I got jabbed for myself, nobody else. I imagine it was the same for you assuming that you have. This attitude that's developed in this country that we expect people to do certain things to accommodate our own concerns/worries is utterly ludicrous in my book and incredibly selfish, a lot more selfish than deciding you don't want to get jabbed that's for sure.


  14. #22813
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    Not what the fuck they want, just the freedom to choose whether or not they choose to administer medicine on themselves without undue pressure. The cornerstone of medical ethics for a number of years, quite rightly.

    You're forgetting on an individual level, vaccinating yourself protects yourself. We've had the opportunity to take the vaccine, I'm assuming given the rather dramatic hysteria at the idea of allowing people not to vaccinate, you've mitigated the risk for yourself as best as you feel you can. But it's none of my business whether you have or not, and it's none of ours whether staff in a healthcare setting have as well.

    Protect yourself and don't expect others to accommodate your own medical concerns, that's what I feel I chose to do when I got jabbed for myself, nobody else. I imagine it was the same for you assuming that you have. This attitude that's developed in this country that we expect people to do certain things to accommodate our own concerns/worries is utterly ludicrous in my book and incredibly selfish, a lot more selfish than deciding you don't want to get jabbed that's for sure.
    Genuinely, no, I didn't do it for my protection.
    I reckon it will have been a minor inconvenience to me (in fact I'd quite like a few days off), like it has to those I know personally. There was little need to mitigate me getting it, just for me but yes, I've had both jabs (before most because of where I work) and my booster.

    I work where vulnerable people are and were for almost every weekday during the pandemic, we closed for one day. My mum was also one that was advised to shield.
    I observed lockdowns, social distancing and mask wearing even when they were relaxed to protect other people, not myself.

    While I have no trust in the current government, I do trust the science behind the vaccines (which really isn't hard to understand but continually mis-labelled/misunderstood), I trust the findings of the trial companies ( I know people who ran some trails and trust them implicitly), the lead scientists and the WHO.


    I assume the vast majority of people in health care are there because they care, want to protect and heal people. To not have the jab seems at odds with that. Especially those that deal with the most critically vulnerable, where contracting the virus will likely mean death.

    I do not want a mandate for vaccines, although I'm all for employers, especially the NHS making it a condition of employment. Just like getting jabs are a condition of travel, especially for working abroad.

    Last edited by OK SpidermAndy!; Yesterday at 15:41.

  15. #22814
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    This attitude that's developed in this country that we expect people to do certain things to accommodate our own concerns/worries is utterly ludicrous in my book and incredibly selfish, a lot more selfish than deciding you don't want to get jabbed that's for sure.
    Just to add to this. Do you not follow speed and traffic signs? Surely by that logic if I drive through a red light and hit you, that's your fault for not protecting yourself?

    What if I have HIV and shag your Mrs/Fella? Do I have a responsibility to protect them or is it their job to protect themselves from my virus?


  16. #22815
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OK SpidermAndy! View Post
    Just to add to this. Do you not follow speed and traffic signs? Surely by that logic if I drive through a red light and hit you, that's your fault for not protecting yourself?

    What if I have HIV and shag your Mrs/Fella? Do I have a responsibility to protect them or is it their job to protect themselves from my virus?
    The first one is a shocking comparison if you ask me. Really doesn't make sense at all. I could try and respond to it but I don't really see the point as it doesn't make sense!

    The 2nd one, I'm assuming it's consensual and you haven't raped/assaulted my Mrs in which case she can use or insist on use of a condom before shagging you so she can do all she can there.

    Ultimately though that would again by down to both the consenting adults at the time with what risks they chose to take. They can choose to do things that reduce those risks as much as they can, they can choose not too. The consequences they know, they've made the decision they both want to make and what will come of it, will come of it.

    Forget blame or fault really and who's right or who's wrong. It's choices and decisions and the ability to make them for yourself. The opportunity to decide which on a blanket principle level (around mandating) we both clearly agree on. I just don't think your income and ability to continue earning it should be determined on personal medical decisions you opt to make. It's not saying you have to do it, but at best it's backing people into a corner and that doesn't sit right with me.


  17. #22816
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    The first one is a shocking comparison if you ask me. Really doesn't make sense at all. I could try and respond to it but I don't really see the point as it doesn't make sense!

    The 2nd one, I'm assuming it's consensual and you haven't raped/assaulted my Mrs in which case she can use or insist on use of a condom before shagging you so she can do all she can there.

    Ultimately though that would again by down to both the consenting adults at the time with what risks they chose to take. They can choose to do things that reduce those risks as much as they can, they can choose not too. The consequences they know, they've made the decision they both want to make and what will come of it, will come of it.

    Forget blame or fault really and who's right or who's wrong. It's choices and decisions and the ability to make them for yourself. The opportunity to decide which on a blanket principle level (around mandating) we both clearly agree on. I just don't think your income and ability to continue earning it should be determined on personal medical decisions you opt to make. It's not saying you have to do it, but at best it's backing people into a corner and that doesn't sit right with me.
    With both of them, despite the obvious fallacies, the risk is on the possible victim, even though they may have followed all practicable procedures. The perpetrator has to take responsibilities for their actions or inactions.


  18. #22817
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Phooey View Post
    They aren't valid points though, they're nonsense.

    The vaccine has been tested to the same level as every other vaccine. The vaccine will massively reduce the risks to you and those you love of getting seriously ill or dying. There is no nuance here, no subtext, no conspiracy plots.

    You either wake up and smell the coffee or you become the problem.
    Haha, come on mate, you know very well that coercion is being used here.

    They need to roll out the ‘kebabs for jabs’ for over 50’s (this time) before I consider another.


  19. #22818
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez the Killer View Post
    I don't understand why people accept that to travel to certain countries for a week's holiday they have to have certain vaccinations, and yet they can't get why we need vaccinations to help curtail a global pandemic that has, for the last two years, grounded the entire planet.

    Sent from my SM-A920F using Tapatalk
    I think it’s a short term/long term dilemma in that comparison Cortez.

    Having a vaccine to go on holiday is efficient within its timescale. The efficacy of this vaccine is reportedly 8 weeks with a tail off of 4 weeks (according to virologists). So to effectively vaccinate staff in high risk areas like the NHS they are looking at maybe 6 week boosters.
    The question is can our government supply this?
    If they can’t then we have to question mandatory vaccination in those roles?


  20. #22819
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Gunn View Post
    I think itís a short term/long term dilemma in that comparison Cortez.

    Having a vaccine to go on holiday is efficient within its timescale. The efficacy of this vaccine is reportedly 8 weeks with a tail off of 4 weeks (according to virologists). So to effectively vaccinate staff in high risk areas like the NHS they are looking at maybe 6 week boosters.
    The question is can our government supply this?
    If they canít then we have to question mandatory vaccination in those roles?
    Is that right, Bryn? That they would need regular jabs? I thought it would be annually, no more than that. In that case I can see why there would be reluctance to have one every few months, even though I'm pro-vax.

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  21. #22820
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez the Killer View Post
    Is that right, Bryn? That they would need regular jabs? I thought it would be annually, no more than that. In that case I can see why there would be reluctance to have one every few months, even though I'm pro-vax.

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    I don’t know the mandate Cortez but the efficacy with the vaccine is 8 weeks with a tail off.
    The video I posted of the doctor pointed out that question to Javid which wasn’t answered. They can’t deliver that protection to the NHS and they know it, so why demand mandatory vaccines when they wont cover the staff or patients?
    It’s a token gesture at best.


  22. #22821
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OK SpidermAndy! View Post
    With both of them, despite the obvious fallacies, the risk is on the possible victim, even though they may have followed all practicable procedures. The perpetrator has to take responsibilities for their actions or inactions.
    Unvaccinated individuals are not perpetrators and nobody else is a victim of their decisions. It's a free country I'm led to believe with free decision making and if that's how we are positioning individuals now based on their decisions for their bodies then it's completely and utterly wrong, let alone flawed as a theory when you can vaccinate yourself and mitigate the risk for yourself, if you want too.

    If that's how you do see it then why don't you supporting mandating vaccinations out of interest?

    Freedom of choice, civil liberty whatever you want to call it comes first and that principle for me is sacred and goes above anything else.


  23. #22822
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    I aint having any more jabs, I've had 3 and the booster made me feel like I was due a heart attack every 5 minures, won't be doing that again, I'll take my chances.

    It's either a vaccine or it aint


  24. #22823
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I aint having any more jabs, I've had 3 and the booster made me feel like I was due a heart attack every 5 minures, won't be doing that again, I'll take my chances.

    It's either a vaccine or it aint
    I think realistically there is only so far you can go when the virus is mutating and you're still injecting people with the spike proteins from the original virus.

    Not saying the vaccines aren't effective at preventing serious illness and death because they still clearly are, but with Delta and then Omicron becoming dominant the effectiveness at stopping symptomatic illness and/or spreading the virus has dropped off and is still relatively low even after a booster. It's now got to the stage where we're clearly slinging similar enough antibodies in the hope that enough sticks to work, I think it would be unlikely that any further vaccines won't be modified from the original.

    They really need to be looking at targets other than the spike protein (as evidence has shown that is quite likely to mutate) or maybe even an attenuated virus as the immune system needs to be able to see other parts of the virus, that is one of the things with prior infection, the immune system can recognise other surface antigens which may well not have mutated as much. If say 5% of the virus changes every 6 months if you're injecting the code to recognise 30& of the virus then 25% of it is the same after 6 months and this decreases over time, with more targets the amount which has changed is less proportionally.

    I think both Moderna and Pfizer are looking at updated vaccines, the concept is very simple, they produce a bit of genetic code so your body can make it, and then put it in like a lipid "envelope" so that it can get into the cells. I guess within reason you can stuff that with anything but it has to get through trials, approvals etc as it's a new vaccine.

    If Omicron ends the pandemic stage and/or makes the illness less severe of course we don't need as much mass vaccination given the risk profile involves fewer people. You'd imagine maybe that those who are elderly or with certain conditions may get an updated vaccine but not sure about the rest of us.

    On another note, I see Novax has been finally kicked out of Aus...


  25. #22824
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SLM92NF View Post
    Unvaccinated individuals are not perpetrators and nobody else is a victim of their decisions. It's a free country I'm led to believe with free decision making and if that's how we are positioning individuals now based on their decisions for their bodies then it's completely and utterly wrong, let alone flawed as a theory when you can vaccinate yourself and mitigate the risk for yourself, if you want too.

    If that's how you do see it then why don't you supporting mandating vaccinations out of interest?

    Freedom of choice, civil liberty whatever you want to call it comes first and that principle for me is sacred and goes above anything else.
    The employer has a duty to ensure the health and safety of all its staff, customers, visitors etc etc. If vaccines are seen as part of that then that's their call. The freedom goes both ways. No jab, don't work on the front line of the NHS or care homes etc. Again vaccines, while offering protection to the individual were and have always been about protecting everyone through reduced transmission.

    Bryn: do you have links to the 8 week efficacy studies?


  26. #22825
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    Default Re: The CoronaVirus MEGA Thread

    Let's keep it simple.

    How many critical cases and deaths are now a result of Omicron and is the Delta variant still active?

    How many of these critical cases and deaths are unvaccinated people?

    How many of these critical cases and deaths are people with other contributory illnesses?

    How many deaths are there of vaccinated people dying without Covid but as a result of the vaccine?

    'Intelligence without ambition is a bird without wings' - Salvador Dali 1904-1989

    I think 'odd' is a good thing. Oddness shows originality, uniqueness and a desire to be different from the masses. Oddness is, maybe, only deemed 'odd' by the majority who are considered less odd but only by their own blinkered observations and understanding. Oddness should never be criticised but be encouraged to nurture, develop individualism and to explore the mind rather than conform to expectation and 'normality'. Many of the world's greatest works of art and prose were born from those minds many considered to be 'odd'.
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