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Thread: Current state of the squad

      
  1. #4076
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    I think people are reasonably calm about the lack of success in the Transfer Market in this transfer window. We are now having preseason friendlies and the squad is more depleted than we ended a poor season with. The Manager must be horrified by so few signings just a few weeks before he goes into competitive matches.


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  3. #4077
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    I'm sure CH( a man with vast knowledge and respect in the game),wouldn't want to work in a head coach role.
    Although the Murphy appointment sounds great in theory,bear in mind he is very inexperienced in the English
    game and could fall flat on his face(although obviously I want him to be a huge success).
    I prefer the old style approach that you appoint a good manager(e.g Hughton),stick with him,and give him control
    of the transfer budget and the final say on recruitment.
    .....and then when that manager inevitably fails and is sacked, the next bloke wants to bring-in his own staff and half of a new team of players, and the entire lamentable cycle begins again; the squad becomes ever-more bloated and the wage-bill ever-more higher.

    As for Dane Murphy's limited experience of English football, it didn't stop him from making a large contribution to helping Barnsley achieve something that has alluded us for more years than I care to remember.

    Of course, there's no absolute guarantee of success with the head-coach model, but if the owners have gone to the effort and expense of bringing-in in people like Murphy and George Syrianos to create a definable playing identity in tandem with the academy's, and build a largely data-and-analytics-led scouting and recruitment structure to find players that suit that playing style, the need for a traditional, old-school manager becomes redundant. If Chris Hughton is on the ball with all of that, and is able to make it work, then good. If not, it's inevitable that he'll be swiftly replaced.

    After all, the academy has been the only shining light of NFFC for a good few years now, mainly because of the hard work of Gary Brazil and his coaches, and Paul Hart and Nick Marshall before him. All of the academy age-groups play the same way and so it's an absolute no-brainer that so should both the U-23-development and first-team squads. Whilst not overlooking the hiring of Warren Joyce, one of the most successful and highly-regarded youth and development coaches in the country.

    There's a reason why Mr Marinakis has invested considerable funds to help acquire Category One status, a significant achievement that Murphy highlighted in his interview the other day, and it's NOT for the academy and seniors to be completely separate entities, which has largely been the case since Paul Hart left, all of those years ago.

    Last edited by Otis Redd'un; 22-07-21 at 01:31.

  4. #4078
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Otis Redd'un View Post
    .....and then when that manager inevitably fails and is sacked, the next bloke wants to bring-in his own staff and half of a new team of players, and the entire lamentable cycle begins again; the squad becomes ever-more bloated and the wage-bill ever-more higher.

    As for Dane Murphy's limited experience of English football, it didn't stop him from making a large contribution to helping Barnsley achieve something that has alluded us for more years than I care to remember.

    Of course, there's no absolute guarantee of success with the head-coach model, but if the owners have gone to the effort and expense of bringing-in in people like Murphy and George Syrianos to create a definable playing identity in tandem with the academy's, and build a largely data-and-analytics-led scouting and recruitment structure to find players that suit that playing style, the need for a traditional, old-school manager becomes redundant. If Chris Hughton is on the ball with all of that, and is able to make it work, then good. If not, it's inevitable that he'll be swiftly replaced.

    After all, the academy has been the only shining light of NFFC for a good few years now, mainly because of the hard work of Gary Brazil and his coaches, and Paul Hart and Nick Marshall before him. All of the academy age-groups play the same way and so it's an absolute no-brainer that so should both the U-23-development and first-team squads. Whilst not overlooking the hiring of Warren Joyce, one of the most successful and highly-regarded youth and development coaches in the country.

    There's a reason why Mr Marinakis has invested considerable funds to help acquire Category One status, a significant achievement that Murphy highlighted in his interview the other day, and it's NOT for the academy and seniors to be completely separate entities, which has largely been the case since Paul Hart left, all of those years ago.
    The reason the manager is 'inevitably sacked' is because of an impatient board and a large section of the
    fanbase who want instant gratification.
    I would put a large sum of money(if I were a gambler)on CH dramatically improving the fortunes of Nottingham
    Forest over a 3 year period if he were allowed to operate without undue interference(which now looks highly
    unlikely).
    Your point about the academy and first team being joined up makes perfect sense,although our record of holding on to our best
    home grown talent for long leaves much to be desired-remember Jenas,Prutton,Reid,Dawson,Harewood,Williams,
    Lascelles and Cash?
    As you say,if CH can't work in the set up that the club have opted for,then it's unlikely he will hang around
    for long.
    We shall see what transpires.

    Last edited by Cloughie1975; 22-07-21 at 08:24.

  5. #4079

    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    In theory the Recruitment-Head Coach model makes more sense for reasons such as those Otis states. Manager's change, and that often means a lot of change elsewhere if recruitment is built around them.

    But where that falls over in practice is that through the very nature of being a manager (and usually an ex player) you not only learn more about the game with practical experience, but you also pick up SO much real knowledge about the people involved with the game, and make so many contacts which get you ahead with great off-radar players (see Garner & Antonio for examples). It'll be close, but I'd say more managers have better recruitment knowledge than a lot people in the roles above them.

    Ultimately though it's all down to the person in that recruitment role. And I've FAR more confidence in Murphy recruiting well having played the game and done a good & similar job at Barnsley, than I have previous people we've had in that position.

    Tactics, organizations, structure......it all helps. But good, suitable people in the right roles should always be priority number 1 in my humble opinion. And Dane does at least tick far more boxes than anyone we've had in that role previous. He doesn't strike me as someone who'll try and bully the manager into picking certain players or hassle the coaches either, so I definitely think we've a lot to be optimistic about

    Last edited by Alf-engelos Mindminackers; 22-07-21 at 10:28.

  6. #4080
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Wandering down the road this morning on my morning walk, which took me to the allotment to water the plants, ansd as I passed a chap walking his dog there came a mumble" Forest fan, then". I wear my shirt for the morning walk.

    We stopped chatting for a bit and it turned out he is a Saints fan and we naturally got to talking about our respective managers.

    The point I make is that after several setbacks, Southampton have stuck with their manager and, as the chap noted, despite being a bit of a feeder club these days, they are still in there fighting.

    So we now have a manager with a decent pedigree; let's give him a run and the chance to put something together, rather than tear everything up again at the first setback.


  7. #4081
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by valspoodle View Post
    Wandering down the road this morning on my morning walk, which took me to the allotment to water the plants, ansd as I passed a chap walking his dog there came a mumble" Forest fan, then". I wear my shirt for the morning walk.

    We stopped chatting for a bit and it turned out he is a Saints fan and we naturally got to talking about our respective managers.

    The point I make is that after several setbacks, Southampton have stuck with their manager and, as the chap noted, despite being a bit of a feeder club these days, they are still in there fighting.

    So we now have a manager with a decent pedigree; let's give him a run and the chance to put something together, rather than tear everything up again at the first setback.
    I agree VP,I just hope CH can integrate into our new set up-Forest badly need his vast knowledge,experience and
    respect within the game.


  8. #4082
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    The reason the manager is 'inevitably sacked' is because of an impatient board and a large section of the
    fanbase who want instant gratification.
    I would put a large sum of money(if I were a gambler)on CH dramatically improving the fortunes of Nottingham
    Forest over a 3 year period if he were allowed to operate without undue interference(which now looks highly
    unlikely).
    Your point about the academy and first team being joined up makes perfect sense,although our record of holding on to our best
    home grown talent for long leaves much to be desired-remember Jenas,Prutton,Reid,Dawson,Harewood,Williams,
    Lascelles and Cash?
    As you say,if CH can't work in the set up that the club have opted for,then it's unlikely he will hang around
    for long.
    We shall see what transpires.
    Plough some of our own money in & I suspect the perspective on things might be vastly different.

    With the money involved & lack of loyalty in football, these three year plans are pie in the sky. Any decent player gets poached pretty quickly & the financial implications of dropping leagues
    doesnt bare thinking about.

    Im no particular fan of how these owners have gone about their business, but I get the need for constant evolution, so Chris Hughton having to show tangible signs of improvement this season to keep his job makes sense to me.


  9. #4083
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by valspoodle View Post
    Wandering down the road this morning on my morning walk, which took me to the allotment to water the plants, ansd as I passed a chap walking his dog there came a mumble" Forest fan, then". I wear my shirt for the morning walk.

    We stopped chatting for a bit and it turned out he is a Saints fan and we naturally got to talking about our respective managers.

    The point I make is that after several setbacks, Southampton have stuck with their manager and, as the chap noted, despite being a bit of a feeder club these days, they are still in there fighting.

    So we now have a manager with a decent pedigree; let's give him a run and the chance to put something together, rather than tear everything up again at the first setback.
    Every club in the top division, bar three or four obvious suspects, is a feeder club nowadays, such is the financial disparity in football, and that isn’t going to change.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    „Don't forget you're alive. 'Cause sometimes when you walk around the city and you're in a bad mood, you can think, hey, wait a minute, we're alive! We don't know what the next second will bring and what a fantastic thing this is. This can get easily forgotten in the routine of life, and that's something I'm trying to bring to my attention at all times. Don't forget you're alive. We're not dead, you know. This is the greatest thing.”

    — Joe Strummer

  10. #4084
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    No that's not his only shortcoming....
    His speed of passing is a problem too. In the modern game you have a very short period when you gain possession to get on the front foot and make an attack count. Our biggest failing (until Garner came in) was our midfield was like a misfiring jalopy when we got possession and I think that hurt as as much or even more than the lack of cut up front.
    I'm not saying Yates is a bad player, far from it but I'm on record saying I think he's far more suited to the CB position and if we are looking to play quick attacking football I'm not sure he's the right man in there...
    I said the same on here a week or so back. Yates has all the attributes to play much more proficiently as a CB than a midfielder. I believe he played there early on in the Academy.

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    Last edited by Notcher; 22-07-21 at 10:54.

  11. #4085
    Grenville Morris
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    No that's not his only shortcoming....
    His speed of passing is a problem too. In the modern game you have a very short period when you gain possession to get on the front foot and make an attack count. Our biggest failing (until Garner came in) was our midfield was like a misfiring jalopy when we got possession
    You are half right in that our build up play was ponderous, but wrong in laying that blame at the feet of Yates.

    Yates is in the side to win headers, break up play, close space down. You may as well blame McKenna or Samba for our slow build up play.

    We looked better when Garner came in yes, alongside Yates, which was a significantly better balance than the Yates/Cafu combination (too ponderous) and the Garner/Cafu combination (too easily exposed).

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  12. #4086
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    No that's not his only shortcoming....
    His speed of passing is a problem too. In the modern game you have a very short period when you gain possession to get on the front foot and make an attack count. Our biggest failing (until Garner came in) was our midfield was like a misfiring jalopy when we got possession and I think that hurt as as much or even more than the lack of cut up front.
    I'm not saying Yates is a bad player, far from it but I'm on record saying I think he's far more suited to the CB position and if we are looking to play quick attacking football I'm not sure he's the right man in there...
    The stats indicate he is more like a centre half. Just look at what he is excellent at, clearances, arial duals and blocks.... The Defensive Midfield indicators like Passing, Tackling and Interceptions he is not the best at the club at.

    The point I made before which is what you are saying is, its like having a centre half playing defensive midfield but in a box to box fashion. Its so strange and I think it effects a lot attacking wise.

    I also totally agree with you as well from my own eyes he cant play at high pace when we are attacking and trying to break down teams.


  13. #4087
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    You are half right in that our build up play was ponderous, but wrong in laying that blame at the feet of Yates.

    Yates is in the side to win headers, break up play, close space down. You may as well blame McKenna or Samba for our slow build up play.

    We looked better when Garner came in yes, alongside Yates.
    Similar comparison could be made to Englands tedious group games in the Euros, Rice/Phillips doing the donkey work, but the incessant sideways & backwards passing gave us absolutely fuck all momentum going forward.

    Fast forward to the first half of the Italian game & suddenly doing the exact same defensive work but with a sizeable emphasis shift on driving forward with our passing, particularly Rice, difference was palpable.

    Although its probably overrated, I dont think anyone denies Yates committment, or his ability to break up play, but his ability to take one less touch & get us moving forwards is a liability. We dont need a higher level player to do that either, we have Colback.


  14. #4088
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    Similar comparison could be made to Englands tedious group games in the Euros, Rice/Phillips doing the donkey work, but the incessant sideways & backwards passing gave us absolutely fuck all momentum going forward.

    Fast forward to the first half of the Italian game & suddenly doing the exact same defensive work but with a sizeable emphasis shift on driving forward with our passing, particularly Rice, difference was palpable.

    Although its probably overrated, I dont think anyone denies Yates committment, or his ability to break up play, but his ability to take one less touch & get us moving forwards is a liability. We dont need a higher level player to do that either, we have Colback.
    I would argue Colback is better at breaking up play as well. Better tackler, more interceptions and covers more ground. The only thing Yates has on Colback is he is better in the air. Even passing Colback is a much better player.

    Tackling, Passing and Interceptions put together Yates comes bottom out of Colback, Garner and Sow.


  15. #4089
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by valspoodle View Post
    Wandering down the road this morning on my morning walk, which took me to the allotment to water the plants, ansd as I passed a chap walking his dog there came a mumble" Forest fan, then". I wear my shirt for the morning walk.

    We stopped chatting for a bit and it turned out he is a Saints fan and we naturally got to talking about our respective managers.

    The point I make is that after several setbacks, Southampton have stuck with their manager and, as the chap noted, despite being a bit of a feeder club these days, they are still in there fighting.

    So we now have a manager with a decent pedigree; let's give him a run and the chance to put something together, rather than tear everything up again at the first setback.
    Importantly Richard, Southampton abandoned the traditional manager model years ago, as too, most of its competitors in the PL, and it's to the credit of the owners that they stuck with Hasenhüttle irrespectively. Crucially, as far as NFFC is concerned, the majority of clubs promoted out of the Championship follow the method we're now far-too-belatedly adopting, not least the three clubs who went up last season (and the three other play-off sides), Watford doing so despite changing coach midway through.

    Last edited by Otis Redd'un; 22-07-21 at 10:29.

  16. #4090
    Grenville Morris
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    We dont need a higher level player to do that either, we have Colback.
    Colback started the season last year but was promptly bombed out of the side because his passing was absolutely garbage and he kept giving the ball away in daft areas without offering the physical presence our other CM's had. Just a reminder before we all start our annual collective dementia, and besides he's barely played any consistent football for over five years now.

    Colback would be a regression, not a solution. I do agree we need another CM but we need to go to market for one, not look internally. Hopefully it's Garner on loan again.

    Last edited by MaxiRobriguez; 22-07-21 at 10:56.

  17. #4091
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    The reason the manager is 'inevitably sacked' is because of an impatient board and a large section of the
    fanbase who want instant gratification.
    I would put a large sum of money(if I were a gambler)on CH dramatically improving the fortunes of Nottingham
    Forest over a 3 year period if he were allowed to operate without undue interference(which now looks highly
    unlikely).
    Your point about the academy and first team being joined up makes perfect sense,although our record of holding on to our best
    home grown talent for long leaves much to be desired-remember Jenas,Prutton,Reid,Dawson,Harewood,Williams,
    Lascelles and Cash?
    As you say,if CH can't work in the set up that the club have opted for,then it's unlikely he will hang around
    for long.
    We shall see what transpires.
    Though a lot of those did raise a significant amount in player sales.
    Jenas - 5m for an 18 yr old when most of football including us was skint.
    Rrutton - 2.5m
    Reid and Dawson - 8m
    Lascelles and Darlow - 7m
    Williams was out of contract but we might have got something from a tribunal for his age, can't remember. Harewood we got 500k for when he was out of contract at the end of the season.
    Cash we got big money for so even the big names from the academy have made a lot.
    We also got 8m for Appiah who had played a handful of matches.
    13m for Ollie Burke.

    The issue has often been how we reinvested this, Some of it was when we were skint or to meet FFP, Selling Prutts allowed them to bring Reidy in and pay for Huckerby on loan - good. Selling Darlow and Lascelles allowed us to bring in Assombalonga and Antonio who then went for 15 and 7m. Good. Selling Jenas probably stopped admin - good. Likewise you'd imagine Dawson and Reid given we were going down. Harewood then spending twice as much on King - nope, but might have worked. Burke and bringing in Lica, Dumitru, Carayol and all that shit, nope, but they didn't cost much, and maybe some of it helped get the lights on when we had all the takeover uncertainties.

    Hughton is clearly though part of the structure Murphy at least initially signed up for. Whether he or any manager is part of the long term plan is a different question, it could be that this won't come into play whilst Murphy assesses the situation and then plans for what will happen when he does leave or be sacked. But if he stays unlike some of the DoF types we've had (Faulkner, McParland, etc) then the plan should work.


  18. #4092
    Nigel Clough
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    Colback started the season last year but was promptly bombed out of the side because his passing was absolutely garbage and he kept giving the ball away in daft areas without offering the physical presence our other CM's had. Just a reminder before we all start our annual collective dementia, and besides he's barely played any consistent football for over five years now.

    Colback would be a regression, not a solution. I do agree we need another CM but we need to go to market for one, not look internally. Hopefully it's Garner on loan again.
    Not too convinced on passback either. It's one thing trying to pass and create something by getting it out wide but that's a high risk pass which is more likely to fail.

    Passing it 5 yards back to the centre back doesn't really do anything but it's a low risk pass (if it goes wrong you could lead to a goal though) which looks better on Excel.

    For his age, last season's form, and the money he is on we can do much better, though experience and character wise he is probably good to have around.


  19. #4093
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    Colback started the season last year but was promptly bombed out of the side because his passing was absolutely garbage and he kept giving the ball away......
    Unless I imagined it, Colback dropped out of the side early-on last season when he was hacked-down by Swansea's centre-forward, Ayew, damaging his ankle ligaments in the process and forcing him to be out-of-action for three months.

    Last edited by Otis Redd'un; 22-07-21 at 11:41.

  20. #4094
    Wally Ardron
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Something in Colbacks brain switches to John Rambo mode whenever the ball is around our box and he lunges in like the opposition are the Viet fucking Cong.


  21. #4095
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Colback ironically has the best passing percentage at the club last season... Some may say its because it is because it is easy 5 yard passes however Yates and Colback have the same Key Passes per game rate at 0.4.

    Me personally I am not averse to passing it simple because he covers a lot of ground and wins the ball a lot. I will admit before he got injured I actually thought he performed a lot better than some people give him credit for.

    Him and Garner could form a decent relationship at the base. However we will need someone of Garners ability I feel to be one of the sitters along side either Cafu or Colback.


  22. #4096
    Grenville Morris
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Otis Redd'un View Post
    Unless I imagined it, Colback dropped out of the side early-on last season when he was hacked-down by Swansea's centre-forward, Ayew, damaging his ankle ligaments in the process and forcing him to be out-of-action for three months.
    You're right, I'm wrong. I thought he'd lost his regular place before then but he hadn't.

    I'll go have a word with my dementia!


  23. #4097

    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    The reason the manager is 'inevitably sacked' is because of an impatient board and a large section of the
    fanbase who want instant gratification.
    I would put a large sum of money(if I were a gambler)on CH dramatically improving the fortunes of Nottingham
    Forest over a 3 year period if he were allowed to operate without undue interference(which now looks highly
    unlikely).
    .
    Kevin Keegan more or less said this at the charity match the other week, that if he is given time he will get us somewhere.

    We don’t need knee jerk reactions to every loss, we/he needs patience and time to develop a team and a culture.


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  24. #4098

    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Davie View Post
    Something in Colbacks brain switches to John Rambo mode whenever the ball is around our box and he lunges in like the opposition are the Viet fucking Cong.



  25. #4099
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Statto View Post
    Though a lot of those did raise a significant amount in player sales.
    Jenas - 5m for an 18 yr old when most of football including us was skint.
    Rrutton - 2.5m
    Reid and Dawson - 8m
    Lascelles and Darlow - 7m
    Williams was out of contract but we might have got something from a tribunal for his age, can't remember. Harewood we got 500k for when he was out of contract at the end of the season.
    Cash we got big money for so even the big names from the academy have made a lot.
    We also got 8m for Appiah who had played a handful of matches.
    13m for Ollie Burke.

    The issue has often been how we reinvested this, Some of it was when we were skint or to meet FFP, Selling Prutts allowed them to bring Reidy in and pay for Huckerby on loan - good. Selling Darlow and Lascelles allowed us to bring in Assombalonga and Antonio who then went for 15 and 7m. Good. Selling Jenas probably stopped admin - good. Likewise you'd imagine Dawson and Reid given we were going down. Harewood then spending twice as much on King - nope, but might have worked. Burke and bringing in Lica, Dumitru, Carayol and all that shit, nope, but they didn't cost much, and maybe some of it helped get the lights on when we had all the takeover uncertainties.

    Hughton is clearly though part of the structure Murphy at least initially signed up for. Whether he or any manager is part of the long term plan is a different question, it could be that this won't come into play whilst Murphy assesses the situation and then plans for what will happen when he does leave or be sacked. But if he stays unlike some of the DoF types we've had (Faulkner, McParland, etc) then the plan should work.
    Selling Prutton(as you correctly say) allowed us to bring in Huckerby on loan,but you are wrong about Reid-he was already at the club.
    Just to think,we could have had a midfield of Jenas,Reid,Prutton and Scimeca around that time(genuine Premier
    League quality),but in true Forest style,it all fell apart(largely through lack of finance and ambition).


  26. #4100
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    Default Re: Current state of the squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    The reason the manager is 'inevitably sacked' is because of an impatient board and a large section of the
    fanbase who want instant gratification.
    I would put a large sum of money(if I were a gambler)on CH dramatically improving the fortunes of Nottingham
    Forest over a 3 year period if he were allowed to operate without undue interference(which now looks highly
    unlikely).
    Your point about the academy and first team being joined up makes perfect sense,although our record of holding on to our best
    home grown talent for long leaves much to be desired-remember Jenas,Prutton,Reid,Dawson,Harewood,Williams,
    Lascelles and Cash?
    As you say,if CH can't work in the set up that the club have opted for,then it's unlikely he will hang around
    for long.
    We shall see what transpires.
    There’s several assumptions in this and most of the other recent posts in this thread, the biggest being that Hughton is unhappy with the appointment of the new CE and several others including the Stuttgart analyst.
    I see it another way-I think Hughton will want to coach on the pitch. That’s not to say he won’t be involved in recruitment, it’s just not his primary job.
    Truth is the biggest threat to managers and their jobs is unstable clubs with poor structures making cyclical errors, the most obvious being signings which are crazy expensive in football. We at last have a structure tgat looks the part and I think he will welcome that nit flounce off like sone prima Donna


 

 

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