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  1. #11501
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world


  2. # ADS
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  3. #11502
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world


  4. #11503
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Some possible gold medalists there for the long jump to a conclusion.


  5. #11504
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    One for the top trolling thread


  6. #11505

    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world




  7. #11506
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Larry King, giant of American broadcasting, has died at the age of 87 in Los Angeles.

    He was treated in hospital for Covid-19 this month, US media say
    I still refuse to believe Trump had covid.


  8. #11507
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/h...imes&smtyp=cur

    If you want to further the notion that Trump is fucking mental, have a read of this......... some of it will make you laugh, most won't.


  9. #11508
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world



    'Intelligence without ambition is a bird without wings' - Salvador Dali 1904-1989

    I think 'odd' is a good thing. Oddness shows originality, uniqueness and a desire to be different from the masses. Oddness is, maybe, only deemed 'odd' by the majority who are considered less odd but only by their own blinkered observations and understanding. Oddness should never be criticised but be encouraged to nurture, develop individualism and to explore the mind rather than conform to expectation and 'normality'. Many of the world's greatest works of art and prose were born from those minds many considered to be 'odd'.
    [/url]

  10. #11509
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world




  11. #11510
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    Default US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogtits View Post
    I like this guy, I remember him from when I took an interest in Communism at college.

    He misses an important chunk of the capitalist story out...

    That the investor with the capital holds the risk.


  12. #11511
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    I like this guy, I remember him from when I took an interest in Communism at college.

    He misses an important chunk of the capitalist story out...

    That the investor with the capital holds the risk.
    No once since Schumpeter has held that view. Maybe your 6th Form Common Rooms days were long ago?

    If you are a worker and there are two jobs, one at a stable firm and one at a startup which offers more risk?

    And in today's economy, where there are many start-ups that offer equity as compensation, who is baring the risk?

    And what about a worker's risk that her labour becomes embedded in machinery and she is made redundant?



    Finally, Wolff is a Marxist. They're not interested in individual capitalists and individual workers. They are interested in the mode of production and the class system. It assumes everyone is engaged in a game of risk and so aggregate investments are aggregate appropriation. That's Marxists are so locked on to 'class interests'.

    Last edited by Redemption; 26-01-21 at 12:07.
    EXACT SAME BENEFITS

  13. #11512
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    Default US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    No once since Schumpeter has held that view. Maybe your 6th Form Common Rooms days were long ago?

    If you are a worker and there are two jobs, one at a stable firm and one at a startup which offers more risk?

    And in today's economy, where there are many start-ups that offer equity as compensation, who is baring the risk?

    And what about a worker's risk that her labour becomes embedded in machinery and she is made redundant?



    Finally, Wolff is a Marxist. They're not interested in individual capitalists and individual workers. They are interested in the mode of production and the class system. It assumes everyone is engaged in a game of risk and so aggregate investments are aggregate appropriation. That's Marxisist are so locked on to 'class intersts'.
    Did you watch the video? It was all based around how YOU were being stolen from. Seemed quite interested in individual workers as that was the perspective it was taken from.

    So my point is , that if he’s talking about how workers are being robbed , it needs to be addressed that investors are carrying the upfront financial risk , which is why in that model they take the cut of profit.

    Last edited by Carvel; 26-01-21 at 12:21.

  14. #11513
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    Did you watch the video? It was all based around how YOU were being stolen from. Seemed quite interested in individual workers as that was the perspective it was taken from.

    So my point is , that if he’s talking about how workers are being robbed , it needs to be addressed that investors are carrying the upfront financial risk , which is why in that model they take the cut of profit.
    Have you ever seen the 'bread economics' scene in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist?


  15. #11514
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    Have you ever seen the 'bread economics' scene in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist?
    Love that book.

    Sent from my M2003J15SC using Tapatalk


  16. #11515

    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    I like this guy, I remember him from when I took an interest in Communism at college.

    He misses an important chunk of the capitalist story out...

    That the investor with the capital holds the risk.
    Also that the business generates a lot of tax income. Even if the company cheats on (avoids) it's own tax commitments, without the economic activity generated by the entrepreneur's investment, many individuals wouldn't have the jobs to pay their taxes. At the end of the day, almost all of the countries tax revenue results from businesses, either directly or indirectly, and that is underpinned by capitalism and the private sector..

    Last edited by I'm Red Till Dead; 26-01-21 at 13:23.

  17. #11516
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    Also that the business generates a lot of tax income. Even if the company cheats on (avoids) it's own tax commitments, without the economic activity generated by the entrepreneur's investment, many individuals wouldn't have the jobs to pay their taxes. At the end of the day, almost all of the countries tax revenue results from businesses, either directly or indirectly, and that is underpinned by capitalism and the private sector..
    What did governments do for tax before Capitalism?


  18. #11517
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    Have you ever seen the 'bread economics' scene in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist?
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OM9jhGiIAFM&feature=share


  19. #11518

    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    What did governments do for tax before Capitalism?
    The crown took money from people who performed the previous form of capitalism which was to go out and steal it from other people (usually abroad/on the high seas) or those enterprising people who were gifted lands who operated 'businesses' collecting there own local taxes (call it an enterprising business getting returns for land use).

    I don't think that invading India or other parts of the world would go down well in this day and age.


  20. #11519
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    The crown took money from people who performed the previous form of capitalism which was to go out and steal it from other people (usually abroad/on the high seas) or those enterprising people who were gifted lands who operated 'businesses' collecting there own local taxes (call it an enterprising business getting returns for land use).

    I don't think that invading India or other parts of the world would go down well in this day and age.
    But effectively that was the start of capitalism; go off and, using superior military power, invade other countries, steal and exploit their raw materials and enslave big chunks of their populations?

    Yes, nowadays you couldn’t sail off a battle fleet and - for example - declare war on another country because you wanted something they have (unless you’re the USA and that „something“ is oil, of course) but the capitalists now have ploughed a path of effective economic slavery instead; in that if you don’t work, you have no shelter, no food, no water, and you pretty much die.

    Americans under capitalism have it worse; a lack of affordable healthcare, which in the US is tied by insurance based schemes to your job; lose your job, lose your healthcare.

    But still, look at all those American Billionaires creaming it off the top.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    „Don't forget you're alive. 'Cause sometimes when you walk around the city and you're in a bad mood, you can think, hey, wait a minute, we're alive! We don't know what the next second will bring and what a fantastic thing this is. This can get easily forgotten in the routine of life, and that's something I'm trying to bring to my attention at all times. Don't forget you're alive. We're not dead, you know. This is the greatest thing.”

    — Joe Strummer

  21. #11520
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    The crown took money from people who performed the previous form of capitalism which was to go out and steal it from other people (usually abroad/on the high seas) or those enterprising people who were gifted lands who operated 'businesses' collecting there own local taxes (call it an enterprising business getting returns for land use).

    I don't think that invading India or other parts of the world would go down well in this day and age.
    So there you go. Primitive capital is some form of theft?

    Then, as Capitalism develops that Primitive Capital, after it has circulated a few times becmes Capital 'proper' and is the source of new investment.

    Every bit of investment capital has to have come from somewhere - and it's mostly the returns from some prior investment.


  22. #11521
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    But effectively that was the start of capitalism; go off and, using superior military power, invade other countries, steal and exploit their raw materials and enslave big chunks of their populations?

    Yes, nowadays you couldn’t sail off a battle fleet and - for example - declare war on another country because you wanted something they have (unless you’re the USA and that „something“ is oil, of course) but the capitalists now have ploughed a path of effective economic slavery instead; in that if you don’t work, you have no shelter, no food, no water, and you pretty much die.

    Americans under capitalism have it worse; a lack of affordable healthcare, which in the US is tied by insurance based schemes to your job; lose your job, lose your healthcare.

    But still, look at all those American Billionaires creaming it off the top.
    Snapping up Van Gogh,s for the price of a hospital wing.

    Sent from my M2003J15SC using Tapatalk


  23. #11522

    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    But effectively that was the start of capitalism; go off and, using superior military power, invade other countries, steal and exploit their raw materials and enslave big chunks of their populations?

    Yes, nowadays you couldn’t sail off a battle fleet and - for example - declare war on another country because you wanted something they have (unless you’re the USA and that „something“ is oil, of course) but the capitalists now have ploughed a path of effective economic slavery instead; in that if you don’t work, you have no shelter, no food, no water, and you pretty much die.

    Americans under capitalism have it worse; a lack of affordable healthcare, which in the US is tied by insurance based schemes to your job; lose your job, lose your healthcare.

    But still, look at all those American Billionaires creaming it off the top.
    I agree, that was the start of or at least the forerunner to capitalism. You can't go back to that in this day and age. That said that probably goes most of the way back in English history. Even if they didn't invade to steal things from others, factions would use the threat of invasion to 'tax' other groups. They were much simpler societies than we have now.

    I think we would struggle to provide the health service we have without the capitalist society we have. I am very pleased that we didn't go down the US route to health care though.

    There ought to be some check on how much people can earn though,and I've said before that I believe that the state should be able to limit what can be handed down to one's children.

    Last edited by I'm Red Till Dead; 26-01-21 at 14:14.

  24. #11523
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    I like this guy, I remember him from when I took an interest in Communism at college.

    He misses an important chunk of the capitalist story out...

    That the investor with the capital holds the risk.
    I think he is right to miss out the bit about the holder of the capital takes the risk.
    The capitalists have rearranged the equation so that profit is no loger the reward for taking risk.
    Risk is being eliminated from the capitalists' responsibility.
    Evidence?
    1 Nuclear power plant contracts signed off by the government are framed so that all risk is taken by the tax payer. The electricity prices per KWHr in these contracts are vastly inflated,and there are absolutely NO penalty clauses for late delivery or even no delivery by the investor.
    2 Rail service provision contracts issued by the government actually reward the investing company for failure, and again all the risk is on the tax-payers shoulders;
    3 PFI contracts: these guarantee mega-high rates of return as the client (hospital, school etc) is obliged to use the PFI contract holder to undertake all work undertaken with the ridiculous charging of tens of pounds for a light bulb to be replaced.
    OK, the small independent investor may be exposed to risk, but look at individuals like Philip Green who sit in comfort on one of their several floating gin palaces in tax-haven locations who suffer naught while the labour take all the pain and risk.
    When I worked we had risk management teams because in those days capitalists took risk but looked to mitigate risk wherever possible.
    It is now a fine art and is not about risk management, but risk elimination ahead of making the investment.


  25. #11524
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Sinister View Post
    I think he is right to miss out the bit about the holder of the capital takes the risk.
    The capitalists have rearranged the equation so that profit is no loger the reward for taking risk.
    Risk is being eliminated from the capitalists' responsibility.
    Evidence?
    1 Nuclear power plant contracts signed off by the government are framed so that all risk is taken by the tax payer. The electricity prices per KWHr in these contracts are vastly inflated,and there are absolutely NO penalty clauses for late delivery or even no delivery by the investor.
    2 Rail service provision contracts issued by the government actually reward the investing company for failure, and again all the risk is on the tax-payers shoulders;
    3 PFI contracts: these guarantee mega-high rates of return as the client (hospital, school etc) is obliged to use the PFI contract holder to undertake all work undertaken with the ridiculous charging of tens of pounds for a light bulb to be replaced.
    OK, the small independent investor may be exposed to risk, but look at individuals like Philip Green who sit in comfort on one of their several floating gin palaces in tax-haven locations who suffer naught while the labour take all the pain and risk.
    When I worked we had risk management teams because in those days capitalists took risk but looked to mitigate risk wherever possible.
    It is now a fine art and is not about risk management, but risk elimination ahead of making the investment.
    Even the smaller entrepreneur is protected from Capital risk. Most seed investment is coming from some other investor - Angels, smaller VCs etc, who have most of their risk offset through the government's generous capital relief incentives.


  26. #11525
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    I agree, that was the start of or at least the forerunner to capitalism. You can't go back to that in this day and age. That said that probably goes most of the way back in English history. Even if they didn't invade to steal things from others, factions would use the threat of invasion to 'tax' other groups. They were much simpler societies than we have now.

    I think we would struggle to provide the health service we have without the capitalist society we have. I am very pleased that we didn't go down the US route to health care though.

    There ought to be some check on how much people can earn though,and I've said before that I believe that the state should be able to limit what can be handed down to one's children.
    But Cuba is widely acclaimed for its Helth Service - in fact it exports Doctors and Nurses all around the world in medical relief programmes and still has a high quality health system.

    I wouldn't want to live inCuba btw, for some other reasons, but the idea that you can't have a health system without thriving capitalism just isn't true.

    America, is the converse. It is a shining example of Thriving Captalism but it has no public health service - it has the most expensive private system on the planet. And many people can't afford it.


 

 

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