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View Poll Results: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?

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  1. #101

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Foster View Post
    Im not gonna get dragged into a discussion about what we should be mekin.... Thats for the capitalists to work out what it is and the socialists to strike whilst being paid to make.
    The capitalists already have worked it out and concluded that apart from the odd digger, there's not much we can make and successfully sell. If Germany runs the EU, they are hardly going to take kindly to us competing on the car market, and likewise Sweden with electronics. We might as well tell the French we're going to start giving them a run for their money in the wine trade. Globally the US and Japan are pretty sorted for motors and gadgets, so we're left trying to flog stuff to where... China? India? One will tell us to fuck off, the other doesn't need anything we can make.

    One thing Britain has traditionally been very good at is financial services, and the City loves the EU because it makes trading so easy. London is the gateway to Europe for the US, so attracts all the top US investment banks, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc. Who are they going to trade with from London if London isn't part of the EU? They'll move all their offices to Paris and cut us out of the loop.

    JCB will still be able to sell diggers around the world, but it's not going to do anybody else much good.

    How's that for some scare tactics?


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  3. #102
    frankwignall
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Es Raleigh gone tits up then? Well bugger me.


  4. #103

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMANRED View Post
    Cars,ships,trains, planes,tellys etc etc etc
    Trains?

    As international brands go, 'British Trains' is about as sexy as 'Russian Cars'.

    As for the rest, see my post above.


  5. #104
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The capitalists already have worked it out and concluded that apart from the odd digger, there's not much we can make and successfully sell. If Germany runs the EU, they are hardly going to take kindly to us competing on the car market, and likewise Sweden with electronics. We might as well tell the French we're going to start giving them a run for their money in the wine trade. Globally the US and Japan are pretty sorted for motors and gadgets, so we're left trying to flog stuff to where... China? India? One will tell us to fuck off, the other doesn't need anything we can make.

    One thing Britain has traditionally been very good at is financial services, and the City loves the EU because it makes trading so easy. London is the gateway to Europe for the US, so attracts all the top US investment banks, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc. Who are they going to trade with from London if London isn't part of the EU? They'll move all their offices to Paris and cut us out of the loop.

    JCB will still be able to sell diggers around the world, but it's not going to do anybody else much good.

    How's that for some scare tactics?
    And how many kids is the financial service going to take off the dole


  6. #105

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMANRED View Post
    And how many kids is the financial service going to take off the dole
    Very few, but that's not the issue we're discussing.


  7. #106
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Alright suppose we leave the RU and start making say cars again, Do you think Herr Merkll or wotever her name is will tell the children of the fatherland not to buy them and risk Mr Benz not selling his cars here


  8. #107
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Fkin EU not RU


  9. #108

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMANRED View Post
    Alright suppose we leave the RU and start making say cars again, Do you think Herr Merkll or wotever her name is will tell the children of the fatherland not to buy them and risk Mr Benz not selling his cars here
    Merkel won't need to say a word. Why would Germans suddenly start buying TVRs and Morris Minors instead of Mercedes, VW and BMW? Meanwhile, how would the British public react to being told that we can't buy German cars and have to settle for inferior British ones or American imports that won't go round corners because we're having a bit of a stand-off with the Krauts? Selling British cars would barely work in the EU, never mind if we no longer had trade agreements with our nearest neighbours.


  10. #109
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    So we've been making cars for the rest of the world for fk knows how long without learning how to make a decent one ourselves by now, Things have moved on since the Allegro and Cortina days, Plus Wapping and the miners conflicts killed the days of the strikes


  11. #110
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    So what are we going to make mek?
    We already mek quite a lot of stuff for export, but it is not the same old traditional stuff we used to export before we joined the "Common market".

    In the old days, we exported loads of stuff to the old empire-sometimes whether they wanted it or not, and this sort of skewed the figures somewhat.

    Nowadays we are doing quite a bit better then the general publics perception. Andy's view that we "don't mek owt anymore", being fairly typical. This is a bit of a misconception, however, as much of what we do export is very specialised highly technical equipment that the public rarely get to know about anyway. I'm only going on figures from 2012, but in that year, overall we were the 10th biggest exporter of goods globally. Add in to that all the "non goods" trade (i.e. financial services, architects, legal etc) and we jump up to 6th.

    However, the biggest importers of our goods are USA, Germany, France, Holland and Ireland, with China coming in in 9th place, and India in 11th. This shows quite a bias towards EU countries, but I don't know if the exports would suddenly stop immediately, if we left the EU.

    Britain is particularly weak in getting a foot hold in the emerging markets of Brazil, Russia, India and China (BRICs), with only India (due to our historical links) and China showing any sort of meaningful figures. Mexico is another poor importer, although the one thing these countries all have in common is that they don't have their own hi-tech industries that need our parts and expertise, or prefer to use "home grown" talent.

    Britain has world leading Technology, Automotive, Medical/Pharmaceutical and Chemical industries, which are all based in the top 4 globally.

    All in all, not a bad performance for a small insignificant island off the coast of Europe that doesn't mek owt anymore.

    Last edited by virgo; 01-07-15 at 21:11. Reason: silly typo-import instead of export

  12. #111
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMANRED View Post
    Cars,ships,trains, planes,tellys etc etc etc
    Our Automotive industry is already very successful, with over 70% of all cars produced in the UK being exported. That they are not all actually owned by British companies is a bit of a moot point in regards to this discussion. As regards Ships, in the days when Britain had the largest merchant Fleet, and a Royal Navy fleet that was always in the top 4 of the largest navies in the world there was always a market for British ships. However, the market is now tiny in comparison to traditional needs, as one super sized container vessel can replace 1000 old tramp steamers.

    We already have the second largest aerospace industry in the world, so not much room for development there.

    Trains-I don't really know much about this sector to make a comment (must try harder), and with regards to telly's etc., we just couldn't really be competitive with the low wages available in the far east.


  13. #112

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by virgo View Post
    We already mek quite a lot of stuff for export, but it is not the same old traditional stuff we used to export before we joined the "Common market".
    I understand this, that was a good post.

    To stick with cars, Britain has a lot of skilled engineers in this field, but most of them work in the UK for foreign firms. The EU makes this arrangement very convenient for all concerned, as a firm like JLR just opens a factory in the Midlands and has instant access to a wealth of talent. If that convenience goes away, firms like JLR might go away too - they'll offer UK engineers jobs abroad, rather than jump through hoops to satisfy Nigel Farage's sense of national pride.

    I'm not trying to knock British industry, just challenge this simplistic idea that we could solve all our problems after an EU exit by reverting back to the 1970s. Rightly or wrongly, Britain's manufacturing heyday, particularly in the obvious areas like cars, ships and trains, is over. Albion Motors Ltd and Great British Electronics PLC are not going to suddenly materialise out of nowhere, open factories and start flogging British cars and tellies around the world the moment we're free of the shackles of EU repression, nor is JCB going to keep the whole of Northamptonshire and Warwickshire in gainful employment.


  14. #113
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The capitalists already have worked it out and concluded that apart from the odd digger, there's not much we can make and successfully sell. If Germany runs the EU, they are hardly going to take kindly to us competing on the car market, and likewise Sweden with electronics. We might as well tell the French we're going to start giving them a run for their money in the wine trade. Globally the US and Japan are pretty sorted for motors and gadgets, so we're left trying to flog stuff to where... China? India? One will tell us to fuck off, the other doesn't need anything we can make.

    One thing Britain has traditionally been very good at is financial services, and the City loves the EU because it makes trading so easy. London is the gateway to Europe for the US, so attracts all the top US investment banks, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc. Who are they going to trade with from London if London isn't part of the EU? They'll move all their offices to Paris and cut us out of the loop.

    JCB will still be able to sell diggers around the world, but it's not going to do anybody else much good.

    How's that for some scare tactics?
    Course its scare tactics, the US and europe are not gonna wanna stop selling stuff to us..... so in return they do a deal so that have to buy from us as well.

    Again if you make something the consumer wants a foreign retailer will jump through hoops so the consumer can buy it.

    I thought a socialist would like to push for us to make and sell stuff to our friends across the water?

    Last edited by Barry; 01-07-15 at 20:55. Reason: O

  15. #114
    Ian Storey-Moore
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I understand this, that was a good post.

    To stick with cars, Britain has a lot of skilled engineers in this field, but most of them work in the UK for foreign firms. The EU makes this arrangement very convenient for all concerned, as a firm like JLR just opens a factory in the Midlands and has instant access to a wealth of talent. If that convenience goes away, firms like JLR might go away too - they'll offer UK engineers jobs abroad, rather than jump through hoops to satisfy Nigel Farage's sense of national pride.

    I'm not trying to knock British industry, just challenge this simplistic idea that we could solve all our problems after an EU exit by reverting back to the 1970s. Rightly or wrongly, Britain's manufacturing heyday, particularly in the obvious areas like cars, ships and trains, is over. Albion Motors Ltd and Great British Electronics PLC are not going to suddenly materialise out of nowhere, open factories and start flogging British cars and tellies around the world the moment we're free of the shackles of EU repression, nor is JCB going to keep the whole of Northamptonshire and Warwickshire in gainful employment.
    So our kids going to be factory workers for the rest of the world then are they


  16. #115
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDMANRED View Post
    So our kids going to be factory workers for the rest of the world then are they
    No they are all gonns be working in the service sector, on shitty low paid jobs at an out of town retail park.


  17. #116

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Foster View Post
    Course its scare tactics, the US and europe are not gonna wanna stop selling stuff to us..... so in return they do a deal so that have to buy from us as well.
    Again, buy what? What have British firms got to sell that the US and Europe are so desperate for?

    Anyway, we're a free market economy. We can't "do a deal" with the US "so that have to buy from us as well". If you want to buy a Chevrolet, you buy one - you just have to pay whatever the import duty on that is. The UK government can't force an American to buy a JCB in return.


  18. #117
    Bucksred
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Foster View Post
    Course its scare tactics, the US and europe are not gonna wanna stop selling stuff to us..... so in return they do a deal so that have to buy from us as well.

    Again if you make something the consumer wants a foreign retailer will jump through hoops so the consumer can buy it.

    I thought a socialist would like to push for us to make and sell stuff to our friends across the water?



    Bill, you are absolutely correct in your post/s and totally sum up simple economics (supply and demand).

    Good posting


  19. #118
    Bucksred
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Merkel won't need to say a word. Why would Germans suddenly start buying TVRs and Morris Minors instead of Mercedes, VW and BMW? Meanwhile, how would the British public react to being told that we can't buy German cars and have to settle for inferior British ones or American imports that won't go round corners because we're having a bit of a stand-off with the Krauts? Selling British cars would barely work in the EU, never mind if we no longer had trade agreements with our nearest neighbours.



    You seem a bit at sea, what about Bentley, Jaguar, Landrover, Aston Martin etc, I'm sure they can make it around corners.


  20. #119

    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucksred View Post
    You seem a bit at sea, what about Bentley, Jaguar, Landrover, Aston Martin etc, I'm sure they can make it around corners.
    Oh for fuck's sake...

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bentley


  21. #120
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by frankwignall View Post
    Es Raleigh gone tits up then? Well bugger me.
    Went tits up in 2003.

    Is now owned by a Dutch company, with bikes made in the far east (Vietnam mainly) and assembled in Germany.

    Raleigh still have a UK presence in Nottingham (well, almost), now being based in Eastwood.


  22. #121
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by virgo View Post
    Went tits up in 2003.

    Is now owned by a Dutch company, with bikes made in the far east (Vietnam mainly) and assembled in Germany.

    Raleigh still have a UK presence in Nottingham (well, almost), now being based in Eastwood.
    Yep, its just a distribution centre now i do believe.


  23. #122
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucksred View Post
    You seem a bit at sea, what about Bentley, Jaguar, Landrover, Aston Martin etc, I'm sure they can make it around corners.
    Bentley owned by VW, Jaguar & land Rover both owned by an Indian company, Aston Martin has a British/US/Italian ownership


  24. #123
    Bucksred
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by virgo View Post
    Bentley owned by VW, Jaguar & land Rover both owned by an Indian company, Aston Martin has a British/US/Italian ownership


    Okay then I will elect MC Claren, would we all agree that would get us around a corner or two, lol.


  25. #124
    13th Duke of Wybourne
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    And you think McClaren sell enough to keep 60 million in jobs? The "we don't mek owt" argument is first hand experience from a sheet metal engineer, this countries great at niche stuff, solving problems and building one offs, i know, i did it. However there's nowhere near enough demand from that to flood the market with supply. We make great stuff, but there's relatively little money in it, we use to mass produce decent stuff. Now, with CAD, 3D printers, Indians working for a bag of rice everything got outsourced they make stuff just as good or better for a he'll of a lot less. I'd love this country to be a producer again but there isn't large scale demand for what we're great at. If China decided to buy F1 cars, refurbed Beesers, classic cars anything we're good at then great. Our biggest export location is the EU because we're part of it.

    "Ive only met Andy....last week actually and can confirm he is in 2nd place in sexiest fucker on here stakes." -Barry

  26. #125
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    Default Re: EU Referendum

    But we could still export to it, not being part of the EU doesnt mean they will never buy from us again.


 

 

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