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Thread: Champions League and Europa League

      
  1. #3451
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Yates View Post
    What do you mean so what, you're the one that compared Forest signing TF to how Man City conduct themselves financially which is chalk & cheese

    If Man.City are well run it's on the back of an unlimited cash injection which wiped out all previous debts & put City at a massive advantage, its easy to be well run financially in the years following unlimited spending

    The modern game is massively skewed financially in favour of the big clubs & it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise
    The comparison with the signing of TF was a response to the perennial 'money is ruining the game' bollocks. People said that when we signed Trev.

    Man City spent big for a few years to bring themselves up to the level of the elite clubs. The same owners have heavily invested in infrastructure ever since and City are now one of the biggest clubs in world football. If their owners left tomorrow none of that would change, because they've built a world class football club which brings in half a billion a year in revenue.

    Good luck to them. I wish we'd had owners who'd been able to do the same for us.

    Last edited by Ravi; 01-05-21 at 21:38.
    THE TRUTH IS THERE AND WITH IT I GO TO THE END OF THE WORLD .

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  3. #3452

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    The Trevor Francis comparison is not a good one. A club whose manager took an average second division side and built a great team, took them to the top of the pile in England putting them in a position to pay the highest transfer fee. The right to do that was earned by a great coach and the great team he built. That's exactly what we want. This was success through talented sportspeople.

    Manchester City were an average top flight team taken to the top by a member of the Abu Dhabi royal family. Sporting talent didn't put them there, and it is not the most important factor in their success. Guardiola may be a good coach, Dr Bruyne may be a good footballer. But if they both left tomorrow City would replace them and they would remain one of the favourites to win everything they enter. A Russian ogliarch did the same with Chelsea.

    There is a huge difference between these two situations.

    A more similar situation would be Leicester, who were not long out of the second tier before they became champions. Had their success put them in a position to break the transfer record, that would have been earnt by their best ever team. But that didn't happen. Instead Chelsea took Kante. They also took Drinkwater to weaken Leicester despite rarely using him. Then City picked off Mahrez. The champions of England had their best players taken because there were wealthier businessmen at other clubs.

    Last edited by Francis Benali (on loan); 01-05-21 at 22:10.

  4. #3453
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    The comparison with the signing of TF was a response to the perennial 'money is ruining the game' bollocks. People said that when we signed Trev.

    Man City spent big for a few years to bring themselves up to the level of the elite clubs. The same owners have heavily invested in infrastructure ever since and City are now one of the biggest clubs in world football. If their owners left tomorrow none of that would change, because they've built a world class football club which brings in half a billion a year in revenue.

    Good luck to them. I wish we'd had owners who'd been able to do the same for us.
    Clubs spending prize money like Forest did when signing Francis didn't ruin the game, the influx of ridiculous amounts of money from state funded oil nations & Russian Oilgarchs is ruining the game


  5. #3454
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    The bitter and envious fans of an irrelevant lower league club.

    Anyone who believes that Clough and Taylor didn’t ‘buy’ success with Derby and Forest is naive and deluded. They knew that paying over the odds on wages and transfer fees is what was need to get the best players, but mainly I realised back then as I do now that the ‘buying success’ line is what the envious fans of lower league clubs or clubs outside the party trot out to explain success. I do acknowledge that Clough and Taylor raised Forest well over and above what was plausible.

    I do also acknowledge that Leicester have been raised well above what was plausible.


  6. #3455
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    The bitter and envious fans of an irrelevant lower league club.

    Anyone who believes that Clough and Taylor didn’t ‘buy’ success with Derby and Forest is naive and deluded. They knew that paying over the odds on wages and transfer fees is what was need to get the best players, but mainly I realised back then as I do now that the ‘buying success’ line is what the envious fans of lower league clubs or clubs outside the party trot out to explain success. I do acknowledge that Clough and Taylor raised Forest well over and above what was plausible.

    I do also acknowledge that Leicester have been raised well above what was plausible.
    You're well off the mark Rav, I'm not in the least bit envious of anything achieved by any club in the modern money dominated era

    Clough & Taylor absolutely didn't buy success at either Forest or Derby and to claim they did is ridiculous, it was a constant battle to balance the books, Clough had to sell Davenport just to the interest on the executive stand


  7. #3456

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    I am also not bitter, not about this anyway. I never needed Forest to be involved in the biggest matches to enjoy watching them. But I do need the teams involved year on year to change rather watching ESL clubs play each other in them every season telling us it's bad for football if it's not them.

    If Forest did what City or Chelsea it would be fun initially, with the novelty of the ascent. It looked a lot of fun for City fans when they won their first title with Mansour's money beating United to it in the last minute. But it doesn't look fun now. There's still an itch to scratch with the CL, but winning that has been inevitable for a decade which has to diminish the excitement a little. Four League Cups on the bounce and half the fans don't enjoy it enough to want to keep the competition running.

    My friend's a Chelsea ticket holder. Goes away to European games. His favourite Chelsea teams were all pre-Abramovich. He's a Chelsea fan for life, just like we're Forest fans, and still enjoys football enough to go regularly. But he doesn't see his club as just a much better run club that the old Chelsea he used to watch win nothing and enjoy the Abramovich era success much more. There doesn't seem much to envy. He watches non-league as well, a struggling sixth tier side and says it's more interesting than Chelsea half the time. And he says this while he has a ticket to watch Chelsea play in the quarter-final of the Champions League. That sounds like it should be something to be envious of. But Abramovich's cash has made Chelsea's involvement in those games so commonplace it doesn't take exceptional sporting ability to put Chelsea there any more.

    Last edited by Francis Benali (on loan); 02-05-21 at 07:34.

  8. #3457

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    I do get that pre-PL football was played in decrepit stadiums that fans were dying in, England was banned from European competition because fans couldn't go to a game without wanting to wrap a brick around somebody's head, black players had bananas thrown at them. It wasn't a golden age.

    More money and popularity for the sport is a good thing. The way it has been used by non-sporting people to kill sporting competition is a bad thing. There's always going to be some dog-eat-dog on the business but the problem is extreme in football because all the power has gone to those non sporting people whose priority is transform domestic and European competition from comps that are for many clubs into competitions for them. That has to be a bad thing?


  9. #3458
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Chelsea are a different animal to City. They are built on sand, a bit like Forest’s success was. Like Forest the success is largely down to one man. When he leaves who knows what will happen. Forest had two men who made the club a major force, but when the second of them finally left the club rapidly pissed away the 18 years of winnings like a 4am drunk at a casino. Since then, only Doughty has really added any value to the club with the building of the academy.
    City are a top European club. Pep and the owners could go tomorrow and they will remain a top European club because the foundations have been put in place with all the football, commercial and community infrastructure the owners have invested in. They initially overspent to bootstrap the team up to the elite level, but in 2021 they operate well within their huge half a billion budget.

    As for anecdotal evidence about the fans of other clubs. I have an old friend who was a City fan for many years before these owners arrived. He watched them in League One. He’s genuinely grateful to be able to watch some of the best players in the world and one of the best ever English teams. And why wouldn’t he be.


  10. #3459

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    I think it might depend a little bit if you like business. To me there are few things more boring in the world. I accept business and a global professional sport can't be separated. But when suits in the boardrooms are by far the biggest players in a sporting competition, the balance is fcuked


  11. #3460

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    The difference between Forest and Chelsea being reliant on one man (or a double act in Forest's case) is Forest were reliant on two hugely talented sports coaches. Chelsea's success is reliant on a man with no apparent sporting talent whatsoever. Over fifteen years of being one of the most successful football clubs on the planet and the key figure in it all has no sporting talent. Surely that's not a good situation?

    I couldn't name all the owners of the Premier League. How it should be. Who cares? I can name the owners of the big six, long before last week's ESL fuss, because they are the single most important person at each of those sporting institutions, and in determining who plays in the biggest matches.

    Last edited by Francis Benali (on loan); 02-05-21 at 11:45.

  12. #3461
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Benali (on loan) View Post
    I think it might depend a little bit if you like business. To me there are few things more boring in the world. I accept business and a global professional sport can't be separated. But when suits in the boardrooms are by far the biggest players in a sporting competition, the balance is fcuked
    The point is they are now too big a football club and will continue to be so. Most football fans don’t care about a club’s origins or how they came to be where they are, or he money. What they care about is what happens on the field each new season, and how it relates to previous seasons. That’s the beauty of a competition. It begins anew every year.

    Last edited by Ravi; 04-05-21 at 14:57.

  13. #3462
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Benali (on loan) View Post
    The difference between Forest and Chelsea being reliant on one man (or a double act in Forest's case) is Forest were reliant on two hugely talented sports coaches. Chelsea's success is reliant on a man with no apparent sporting talent whatsoever. Over fifteen years of being one of the most successful football clubs on the planet and the key figure in it all has no sporting talent. Surely that's not a good situation?

    I couldn't name all the owners of the Premier League. How it should be. Who cares? I can name the owners of the big six, long before last week's ESL fuss, because they are the single most important person at each of those sporting institutions, and in determining who plays in the biggest matches.
    Did owners used to have footballing talent?

    What Abramaovic does have is an obvious love for the game. I have far more respect for what he’s done at Chelsea than what the owners of Arsenal have ‘achieved’ in turning them from perennial title challengers to mid table business asset. Abramovic hasn’t forgotten what the purpose of a football club is - sporting success on the field.

    Last edited by Ravi; 04-05-21 at 15:01.

  14. #3463
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Speaking of which. A delicately poised Champions League 2nd leg awaits. Man C v PSG. (2-1)

    Pep or Poch?


  15. #3464

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Paul Warne


  16. #3465
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Abramovic hasn’t forgotten what the purpose of a football club is.
    Its for washing his drug money


  17. #3466
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Speaking of which. A delicately poised Champions League 2nd leg awaits. Man C v PSG. (2-1)

    Pep or Poch?
    City, especially if Mbappe is out. City just look like they want it so bad.


  18. #3467

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Was Pep or Poch in Ironman?


  19. #3468

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Speaking of which. A delicately poised Champions League 2nd leg awaits. Man C v PSG. (2-1)

    Pep or Poch?
    I must admit that City seem to have the best team that money can buy.


  20. #3469

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by adam09 View Post
    City, especially if Mbappe is out. City just look like they want it so bad.
    Yes,they need to justify their obscene and bloated salaries.


  21. #3470
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloughie1975 View Post
    I must admit that City seem to have the best team that money can buy.
    Barcelona, Real & Juventus have more expensive squads. The PSG and Bayern squads are only marginally cheaper than City’s.


  22. #3471

    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Barcelona, Real & Juventus have more expensive squads. The PSG and Bayern squads are only marginally cheaper than City’s.
    I think you've been overdosing on Sky/BT Ravi.


  23. #3472
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    MBappé only on the bench. Blimey.


  24. #3473
    Viv Anderson
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    There was a time when an English team in the semi final of a European competition would've gripped the sporting nation

    I didn't even realise this bag of money riddled shit was even on tonight


  25. #3474
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    What the fuck, is the pitch covered in ice?!


  26. #3475
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    Default Re: Champions League and Europa League

    Quote Originally Posted by adam09 View Post
    What the fuck, is the pitch covered in ice?!
    It's a bit parky in Manchester today.

    Hail storm before kick off.


 

 

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