Youth Team - What a season but for what?

[Mark123]

Guys I know Billy Davis (“BD”) keeps saying that we have a really young squad (which we do) but it must be noted that BD has zero interest in the Academy side. The Regional League winning academy side (Forest Youths) was paraded around the City Ground a few weeks ago at half time. On the Monday morning every player with their youth contract due up at the end of the season was released bar four players. BD has not watched the academy play once this season, what a joke.

I go to watch every academy game and there are some great players there. The last time we had an academy side win the league the team included, Andy Reid, Jermyn Jenas, Michael Dawson, Marlon Harewood. This was like over 10 years ago and in a time when we were a top side. Also the youth teams they played against were mainly UK/Irish players whereas today Arsenal, Man U, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea have French, Spanish, Italian, German and South American players and they spend millions on their academy.

Forest Youth’s won their regional league this year with 3 games to spare. They were knocked out of the Youth Cup by the eventual winners Chelsea who have had 3 of that team in the 1st team squad since then.

Forest went on to play Arsenal in Premier League final at the Emirates yesterday after beating Leicester (unbeaten all season) on Saturday. They put up a great display and were beaten by a better side 5-3. Only 2-3 of Arsenals starting 11 were English and all of them have loan or Reserve Team experience.

A lot of credit has to go to Eoin Jesse the Academy boss for the team’s style of football and results this season. On the way to winning the Regional League they beat Newcastle, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Sunderland to name a few.

I just cannot understand BD's attitude towards the Academy. Derby came 8th in the Regional League that Forest won yet 4-5 of the Derby's Youth team have been in or around the 1st team squad. This is not happening at Forest.

What future do the 4 guys that were kept on have? We don’t have a Reserve team and the 1st team staff clearly have no interest in the Youth team. The Chairman talks about BD building a proper club well I can’t see how this can be done by ignoring the Youth team.

It must have been a sad trip back from the Emirates yesterday. Not only did they lose but the majority of our best youth team in over a decade knew it would be the last time they played for the club. Best of luck to them all.

 

[Carvel]

I agree, this will come and bite us in a few years. I know the Dad of the U-16s manager and he says it is the best group of young players they have ever had at Forest.

If the same is done with that team, which it looks like it will with BD in charge then it'll be a bit of a joke. I wouldn't be suprised to see a few more SWP pop up playing for bigger teams.

 

[TheDude]

send the kids to alton towers.

We need players who are ready to do a job for us now.

 

[red_outlaw]

send the kids to alton towers.

We need players who are ready to do a job for us now.

I echo that sentiment but I still think the abolition of the reserve team was a poor decision. That would have been the next step in these young players' development whereas now we have to either sign them up on first team contracts or release them.

 

[Tutts]

It seems to me our first team squad has been doing quite well this season till yesterday.

If and when any of the players are ready to progress, I'm sure the coaching staff will let Billy know - that is after all, their job.

Are any of the young lads training with the first team?

I watched probably about a dozen matches the season (00-01) the Under 19's won the league with Reid, Dawson, Jenas et al, and never saw David Platt there, yet Jenas and Reid still progressed to the first team that season.

If they're good enough, they won't go missing - a lot of people were shocked at those released last year - but none of them have gone on to pull up any trees elsewhere.

 

[Johno22]

Which 4 have been kept on?

It was unlikely that all 11 would make it into the first team all together so if the 4 that remain do make it into the first team then that would represent a decent return from this year's crop.

 

[Carvel]

If they're good enough, they won't go missing

Thats simply not true. Loads of players that are good enough to play league football don't becasue their isn't any trust put in them.

Look at some of the players that went to Hoddles Academy and are now playing in Serie A.

There will be plenty that don't get picked up and just end up doing something else.

 

[NEWARKREDS!]

apparently Daniel elliott has been released and ive heard hes a good player!

 

[It's Baggio]

send the kids to alton towers.

We need players who are ready to do a job for us now.

Sorry but that's a stupid thing to say. Yeh, we need players now but what about in 3 years time?

A successful academy is vital to a club like ours.

 

[Tutts]

Thats simply not true. Loads of players that are good enough to play league football don't becasue their isn't any trust put in them.

Look at some of the players that went to Hoddles Academy and are now playing in Serie A.

There will be plenty that don't get picked up and just end up doing something else.

Isn't that the Glen Hoddle Academy of Dave Beasants Wannabe Footballer Sons? lol

Ok, maybe a few might slip through - especially at a younger age - but we should have a reasonable idea by aged 18.

Plus we can always do a Kevin Dawson and keep them on if they have a more talented younger brother. :nowink:

 

[Mark123]

I agree that they can't all be kept but 2-3 very good player have been released. The player kept are Karl Watson (Centre Half), Kieran Freeman (Left Full), Robbie Gibbons (Centre Midfield) and Tom Mullen (Centre Forward). I feel very sorry for George Thomson (Centre Forward) and Danny Elliott (Centre Midfield). They were excellent all season and they were just dropped.

I agree its a great young team and that they should be able to move onto Reserves.

BD has fallen out with the Academy, he doesn't speak to them and with no reserves team unless they get a loan deal they will be released at the end of next season. About two months a go every player than wasn't released last year was let go bar Darlow the Keeper and the striker.

The 00/01 had a communication link to the 1st team but now it doesn't exist. None of them train with the 1st team. Last years yth players trainined with the yth team year and played 4 friendly games. The exact same will happen again this year and as long as BD is in charge. He tried to close the acadamy at Derby and would do the same at Forest if he got a chance. Its not right and trust me I know lots of people around the club and football in general. Word will spread of the situation and eventually the best young players won't sign for us as they know they won't get a shot at the 1st team.

 

[It's Baggio]

They've released Thomson? Bizarre, he's looked the part whenever I've seen him.

 

[Mark123]

Yes Thomson is gone. Crazy. Danny Elliott is also very good. Himself and Robbie Gibbons distroyed most midfields this season.

 

[06harlo]

Thomson, is a very good player. Went to school with him until he left in year 11. Bit gutted for the lad, especially as rumours were flying about hes the next big thing.
However, rumours have it Arsenal Scouts have approached his parents and him, as this is what i have been fed from his closer friends....

 

[goatboy]

It's like Schroedinger's Cat, this conundrum.

Young players fail to prosper at all sorts of teams and go on to do well elsewhere, like Cohen at West Ham. Would he be the player he is now were it not for his time at Yeovil and Forest? It's impossible to say but for every three or four players that go on to succeed there are many more who don't make it in the game regardless of their early form.

The youth leagues and cups are not the Football League and if the academy is canny enough to get these players to the top of their tree it's clever enough to sort the wheat from the flash-in-the-pans. It would be cruel to keep on a player who they know needs something other than his prospects at Forest when he could do better elsewhere. Maybe the lad being chased by Arsenal is the sort who would do well there but not here. Again, only time will tell and then the what ifs are useless. Sean Wright-Phillips might never have amounted to anything if we'd kept him on.

 

[Lee]

It's like Schroedinger's Cat, this conundrum.

Young players fail to prosper at all sorts of teams and go on to do well elsewhere, like Cohen at West Ham. Would he be the player he is now were it not for his time at Yeovil and Forest? It's impossible to say but for every three or four players that go on to succeed there are many more who don't make it in the game regardless of their early form.

The youth leagues and cups are not the Football League and if the academy is canny enough to get these players to the top of their tree it's clever enough to sort the wheat from the flash-in-the-pans. It would be cruel to keep on a player who they know needs something other than his prospects at Forest when he could do better elsewhere. Maybe the lad being chased by Arsenal is the sort who would do well there but not here. Again, only time will tell and then the what ifs are useless. Sean Wright-Phillips might never have amounted to anything if we'd kept him on.

That is not the case.

None are being given the chance here.

 

[Phooey]

It's like Schroedinger's Cat, this conundrum.

Young players fail to prosper at all sorts of teams and go on to do well elsewhere, like Cohen at West Ham. Would he be the player he is now were it not for his time at Yeovil and Forest? It's impossible to say but for every three or four players that go on to succeed there are many more who don't make it in the game regardless of their early form.

The youth leagues and cups are not the Football League and if the academy is canny enough to get these players to the top of their tree it's clever enough to sort the wheat from the flash-in-the-pans. It would be cruel to keep on a player who they know needs something other than his prospects at Forest when he could do better elsewhere. Maybe the lad being chased by Arsenal is the sort who would do well there but not here. Again, only time will tell and then the what ifs are useless. Sean Wright-Phillips might never have amounted to anything if we'd kept him on.

You have a point there, a County supporting mate of mine at College (circa '88) used to talk about County giving a trial to Ruud Gullit in 1980 but deciding not to take him. Would he have been the same player if they had signed him?

 

[Mark123]

As Lee says the point is they are not getting the chance. I accept that the whole team will never be kept on and some are young enough to play yth next year so they have not been let go. The point is though no one in the 1st team is looking at them. I know Eoin Jesse wanted to keep on another few players but wasn't allowed. There is just no interest from BD and a player released from Forest will find it hard to get another club even though our Academy has hammered most Premier League Acadamys this year.

The assumption by most clubs will be "if they aren't good enough for Forest or even their Reserves (which there isn't one) they aren't good enough for us" but I don't think that is the case.

 

[marshdweller]

I think Billy has made a rod for his own back. The first team have performed so well this season that the pressure is now on for him to get them promoted next season (assuming he stays). Therefore, he probably won't take the risk of promoting a youngster who might not actually make the step up. Look at Billy's reluctance to play Lewis McGugan this season, even though LM is a first team player.

Not only that, but presumably he needs to squeeze every last penny out of his budget to afford the players he needs to take the club into the Premier League. If this means letting a handful of teenagers who might not make it at Championship level, let alone in the Premiership, I imagine he wouldn't think twice.

It is a shame that the youth side seems ignored by Billy, but presumably he has his reasons. We can only hope that his decisions are being made with the best for the club in mind, and not just short-term gains for Billy Davies and his ego, CV and bank balance.

 

[TheDude]

Sorry but that's a stupid thing to say. Yeh, we need players now but what about in 3 years time?

A successful academy is vital to a club like ours.

Its not that stupid and its the thoughts of alot of managers in the premiership.

It is good to see young kids come through the ranks but I'm more then happy to see Billy put 100% of his time and work into the first team only.
Get us up and stay up that is all that is on Billy's mind.

The first team is what counts, if we need a player we can sign one, we have the money to do so after all and not have to think about picking a kid out to bring in unless of course he is good enough.

Plus players who are not good enough for the first team of yet can be loaned out to hopefully come back as men.

 

[redforever]

first of all congratulations to the youth team!! what a fantastic season! and i'm glad to hear watson, mullen, freeman and gibbons were kept on... cracking young players! gibbons and elliot were the midfield driving force behind this great side. very sad to see elliot and thompson go, really think they deserved better, both very talented.

eoin jess should still be really proud of probably the best academy team in the country outside your arsenal's, your chelsea's, your man united's, who have spent millions on players! and these are the only teams to beat our boys in meaningful games this season if i'm correct?

and surely this is the point of the academy?? to save us having to spend millions on players in an inflated market??

I'm struggling to see how our most succesful academy team in a decade, hasnt got a single player good enough to even train with the first team?? Its crazy! BD seems to have completely shut the academy out, I've heard the lads arent even allowed near the first team anymore. They dont even eat together this season. Man Utd and Chelsea's academies eat with their first team. How are young players supposed to learn if they not allowed access to the top pro's at their club?

And where's the stepping stone between the academy and the first team?? the reserves - Disbanded!! Something needs to be done about this now, before BD decides he's got a better offer elsewhere and leaves our club in ruins, like he did down the road at derby

 

[The Chump]

I said at the time BD scrapped the reserves that this smacks at short-term-ism and I am still concerned now about the loyalty and future intent of the Manager. If he had the long term benefit of the club in mind he would be interested in maintaining and improving the infrastructure of the club (Academy, reserves etc)

How can a manager who sees his future at Forest not want to encourage future growth and support youth development?

i have always had the feeling that BD sees us as a short term project to get him into the big time hence no need to worry about developing the youth here as they will one day be competition for him at his next club

 

[marshdweller]

As I understood it, Billy hasn't scrapped the reserve team, he's simply withdrawn them from the reserve league. They still play matches, but they're friendlies against clubs we've invited/challenged to a match. His gripe was that the standard of the reserve league wasn't high enough to develop players and improve their fitness. This doesn't sound like the talk of someone who isn't interested in developing players the club already has.

 

[redforever]

As I understood it, Billy hasn't scrapped the reserve team, he's simply withdrawn them from the reserve league. They still play matches, but they're friendlies against clubs we've invited/challenged to a match. His gripe was that the standard of the reserve league wasn't high enough to develop players and improve their fitness. This doesn't sound like the talk of someone who isn't interested in developing players the club already has.

this was the reason given alright, but i fail to see how inviting/challenging a small handfull of clubs to play friendlies at irregular intervals can be classed as better for developing players and their fitness, than a regular competitive competition. also from wat i hear these teams of a "higher standard" were mostly conference sides the young lads beat well, so this ticks neither box, and appears to me to be the actions of someone not interested in developing players.

but the reserve team isnt only important for youth players as a stepping stone to the first team, its essential for giving established first team players returning from injury or simply out of favour a chance to get some much needed match practice at a level which wont cost us points.

also im pretty sure its a PL requirement so if things go according to plan next year and we gain the promontion we came so close to this year, where are we going to get the players to fill the reserve team squad having let go some of our top youth team talent this year?

 

[The_City_Is_Ours]

After BDs comments in the recent weeks, and especially after the Blackpool game, I think its evident the clubs performance through the current season comes before the clubs long term future - just imagine he were to scrap both the reserves and academy then come the end of the season he decides its time for a new challenge! Billy has never been here for the long haul regardless of the comment on him being open to a '10 year contract'.

From this seasons youth team I remember hearing good things about Tim Hopkinson, has he been shown the door aswell?