Standard of Referees

[Yates in the Fjord]

Too much data analysis in (reputable) gambling platforms to get away with it.

Reputable yes, but then you have all those which are not... We currently have a case and ongoing investigation from the Norwegian Premier League, so it happens. Not a ref though, but players.

 

[Border]

Another ridiculous rule.

In north America cars must have priority over everything.

 

[uptight9]

It’s a disgrace we do not import referees from abroad.

If EM was a little more powerful in the Prem, I'm pretty sure he'd have proposed this.

Funny thing is that in Greece, we do have foreign refs officiating the derbies, which was something that the other 3 powerful clubs requested because they felt that EM was holding the reins of our PGMOL.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Reputable yes, but then you have all those which are not... We currently have a case and ongoing investigation from the Norwegian Premier League, so it happens. Not a ref though, but players.

Norwegian PL doesn't have the global reach that the PL does. It's a huge risk to try and bribe PL referees for gambling purposes when there's so much scrutiny in that market.

Not saying it's not possible but I just think the corruption is significantly more likely from inside the PL rather than outside. Much easier for PL/UEFA/FIFA top brass to take money either directly or indirectly from keeping the cartel clubs at the top of the league and creating rules (FFP, more substitutions), structures (format changes for Europe) and narratives (subjective refereeing decisions, offside is offside) etc to get the end result they're after without investigating journalists getting a sniff and whilst tribal football fans argue amongst themselves in the minor details.

 

[JohnnyCarey]

The thing Webb and PGMOL will not address is the very core of the problem: inherent bias.
Salisbury's decision was not corrupt but it was not merely incompetent either. Like so many weak referees he was sucked in by the "big club" atmosphere and the unconscious desire to join in with the Old Trafford crowd. He wanted to be a player on that stage -- and he sure as hell got his name up in lights.
Mere incompetence will manifest itself in bad decisions against both sides. But no one at all believes that if one of our defenders did exactly what Mbeuno did, the ref would not have given Man U a penalty. And no believes that if the same thing had happened to, say, MGW in the Man U penalty area, the resultant goal for us would not have been chalked off.
That's the real issue: the "big" clubs consistently benefit from inherent bias from referees -- Arsenal did so again last night against Burnley. These refs are caught up in the all the glamour and all the hype that surrounds the Sky 6 and this has a material effect on the outcome of games and indeed of huge questions like who wins the PL and who gets relegated.
But PGMOL will never acknowledge this, much less do anything about it. What they could do is own up to the problem and gave refs specific training in how to avoid it. Instead they issue meaningless consequence-free corrections that keep all the cosy relationships and assumptions intact.

 

[donny]

Salisbury's decision was not corrupt but it was not merely incompetent either. Like so many weak referees he was sucked in by the "big club" atmosphere and the unconscious desire to join in with the Old Trafford crowd. He wanted to be a player on that stage -- and he sure as hell got his name up in lights.

Salisbury has never refereed a Manchester City or United match which has seen them lose, hes also got a similar record with the younger sides, where with the exception of a 2014/15 Manchester U21 Derby match (which City won), he hasn't refereed a U21 or U18 match for either one, that has seen them lose, since 2018/19, when Citys U21s lost to Sunderland in the JPT..

 

[Yates in the Fjord]

Not saying it's not possible but I just think the corruption is significantly more likely from inside the PL rather than outside.

I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t think it’s impossible either.

That said, as I mentioned, I don’t think it’s likely, and I don’t believe that’s what happened here, either on or off the pitch. I’m fairly convinced it simply comes down to poor refereeing, or perhaps the referee trying to assert himself as the one with the final say instead of just following the VAR recommendation.

For all we know, he might even have a personal issue with the VAR official and just wanted to show who’s in charge

 

[Captain Sinister]

I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t think it’s impossible either.

That said, as I mentioned, I don’t think it’s likely, and I don’t believe that’s what happened here, either on or off the pitch. I’m fairly convinced it simply comes down to poor refereeing, or perhaps the referee trying to assert himself as the one with the final say instead of just following the VAR recommendation.

For all we know, he might even have a personal issue with the VAR official and just wanted to show who’s in charge

VAR official shagging top ref's wife and daughter?

 

[Rzar]

The thing Webb and PGMOL will not address is the very core of the problem: inherent bias.
Salisbury's decision was not corrupt but it was not merely incompetent either. Like so many weak referees he was sucked in by the "big club" atmosphere and the unconscious desire to join in with the Old Trafford crowd. He wanted to be a player on that stage -- and he sure as hell got his name up in lights.
Mere incompetence will manifest itself in bad decisions against both sides. But no one at all believes that if one of our defenders did exactly what Mbeuno did, the ref would not have given Man U a penalty. And no believes that if the same thing had happened to, say, MGW in the Man U penalty area, the resultant goal for us would not have been chalked off.
That's the real issue: the "big" clubs consistently benefit from inherent bias from referees -- Arsenal did so again last night against Burnley. These refs are caught up in the all the glamour and all the hype that surrounds the Sky 6 and this has a material effect on the outcome of games and indeed of huge questions like who wins the PL and who gets relegated.
But PGMOL will never acknowledge this, much less do anything about it. What they could do is own up to the problem and gave refs specific training in how to avoid it. Instead they issue meaningless consequence-free corrections that keep all the cosy relationships and assumptions intact.

That is another reason why you need foreign refs. A huge amount of domestic referees have bias baked in, intentional or not.

 

[Rzar]

I understand your point but what gives us the right to take referees away from other countries and thus weaken their leagues? We should get our own house in order.

Nothing gives us the right, but the same argument would have been made about players many many years ago. At the end of the day, it's the best league in the world so should have the best referees to go with it, wherever they come from. We do have some good refs, I think Oliver is a brilliant ref as an example, but the pool of them is tiny & the rest are terrible.

 

[Timothy Pope]

I understand your point but what gives us the right to take referees away from other countries and thus weaken their leagues? We should get our own house in order.

We do it with the best players- so why not the referees?

 

[Strummer]

We do it with the best players- so why not the referees?

Er, because maybe the other major European leagues might not take kindly to that, given there would be no financial benefit to them or - more importantly - their clubs?

You don’t pay a transfer fee for a matchday official!

 

[Rob1965]

I’ve long thought that having referee's from other countries leagues referee in the PL is a great idea. The only problem I can see is when we try to send a few of ours to ref their games…

 

[PynchonForest]

I don't understand. The Laws of the Game explicitlystate that players must remain 10 yards from the ball. If they are closer the kick is retaken unless there is an advantage applied. So why does a ref say they can stand closer? There are either rules "Laws" or there aren't. You can't have a rule book and then have footnotes saying the Law doesn't have to be applied, that way lies anarchy.

But the laws also state (thanks to Collina!) that a player inside the ten yards can be there if they do not make an attempt to play the ball. Which some teams have used to block forward passing lanes, and it happens quite often. It's a ludicrous situation.

 

[Timothy Pope]

Er, because maybe the other major European leagues might not take kindly to that, given there would be no financial benefit to them or - more importantly - their clubs?

You don’t pay a transfer fee for a matchday official!

I guess it depends on the referee’s contract. Are their contracts the same as players or just like a regular employee?

 

[Redofheaven2]

But the laws also state (thanks to Collina!) that a player inside the ten yards can be there if they do not make an attempt to play the ball. Which some teams have used to block forward passing lanes, and it happens quite often. It's a ludicrous situation.

Putting referees in charge of the rulebook was a big mistake. Stupid things like this plus making things ambiguous to give themselves wiggle room.

 

[PynchonForest]

I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t think it’s impossible either.

That said, as I mentioned, I don’t think it’s likely, and I don’t believe that’s what happened here, either on or off the pitch. I’m fairly convinced it simply comes down to poor refereeing, or perhaps the referee trying to assert himself as the one with the final say instead of just following the VAR recommendation.

For all we know, he might even have a personal issue with the VAR official and just wanted to show who’s in charge

There may well be some credence to that, in certain situations. There are two local referees I used to work with in high level games. Both were shitty, but one golfed with the assignor every week and the other was, ta-dah!, the assignor. And they both disliked me. They would, at times, overrule decisions by the other onfield official (in indoor we use two onfield and one "in the box"-timekeeper etc) purely to assert they were some sort of alpha male bs. The one guy did not watch football at all (on TV etc), had never played the game, but he did understand jocks and their mentality. So he was good with the whole "battle of willpower" shit that sometimes occurs when jocks lean a on a referee via dissent etc. He once (and I kid you not) cautionned something like 20 players in a single match lol. I got punted off the list for top level refs prematurely about 13 years ago or so based on their feedback. Refs have egos too, and some of them are not founded on ability.

 

[PynchonForest]

I guess it depends on the referee’s contract. Are their contracts the same as players or just like a regular employee?

They work for whatever federation. Which is tied in with their FIFA badge. I would kindly suggest that having a ref from Spain (for example) working in England's Prem would immediately result in him being removed from ever reffing England in internationals, in addition to his home country (Spain), and that would make assigning internationals a bit more complex. In other words, it opens another can of worms. If a guy from Spain chooses to ref in the English Prem he would, in theory, have a lesser chance of being considered for international selections as much of his work occurs outside of his home nation. It seems a simple potential solution but it would most certainly not be one.

 

[Notcher]

Just checking into the thread again to say almost all of them are still useless incompetent shit twats.

 

[donny]

Just checking into the thread again to say almost all of them are still useless incompetent shit twats.

I've got told some stories about the head of PGMOL by former colleagues of his (both in his former profession, and former referees), that if I were to tell them publicly, may leave me open to stuff.

 

[derbyshirered]

I see its been taken off the bbc I wonder why?

 

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Gambling? There is more than enough money involved in every match to create incentives for corruption and bribery.

That said, I don’t think that’s what we’re seeing here, it’s more likely just poor refereeing. In this case, it could also be a referee trying to demonstrate that they can stand by their own decisions rather than letting VAR dictate everything, especially given the criticism VAR has faced. This may have seemed like a perfect opportunity to show that “integrity”, Manchester United at home, in a match with little significance against a smaller team.

There could be a a guy in the far east that put 2000HKD at 250-1 that there would be a goal scored following a stonewall hadball offence by an attacking player and it was allowed to stand.

 

[YellowBelly Red]

I see its been taken off the bbc I wonder why?

I had a comment removed by the BBC yesterday, because I used the word "corrupt".

 

[PynchonForest]

I disagree Pynchon, and I think your ref mates are completely wrong.

It all hinges on the predication that the handball was accidental. Sorry, he brought that ball under control with his arm, and he knew it too. He was laughing about it while waiting for the decision. It wasn't 'intentional' in the sense that he didn't start out with that in mind (who does) but once it was happening he instinctively used his arm in an unnatural way. All the other rubbish about the decision is irrelevant because there is no sense in which that incident passed the taste test of it being "accidental", the fact so many people can't see that is frankly ludicrous, and a good example of why we have the problems around the view of handball in the first place.

First, don't assume you can crawl inside a players head and think you "know what they are doing". I stopped doing that when I was a second year referee. What happend was the ball was crossed in, Milenkovic flapped his foot at it, got a touch and slightly changed the trajectory. As such, that touch gave Mbeunmo a get out of jail free card for the use of his own arm as it was in a "natural position". This is how the wording of the law is. Basically it says if A happens then B cannot be called if the player's arm is in a natural position. Which, in itself, is a curious bit of logic. Collina's unrelenting zeal to try and "perfect" the handball law has been a fool's errand.