Messi or Ronaldo?

[Gyros Peter]

I love all the really good ones, and find it impossible to pick a best - in no order Brazil Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldihno, Gullit, Messi... I could keep going with players like Valderama, Figo, Portugal Ronaldo, Modric, Romario, Hagi, Keane, Yates etc.

 

[Bonfy177]

I also loved watching Ronaldinho, an unpredictable maverick who did whatever he felt like, and made watching his football an absolute joy.

That Chelsea goal , even the Chelsea fans stood and applauded.

 

[Bonfy177]

I love all the really good ones, and find it impossible to pick a best - in no order Brazil Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldihno, Gullit, Messi... I could keep going with players like Valderama, Figo, Portugal Ronaldo, Modric, Romario, Hagi, Keane, Yates etc.

The Bulgarians and Romanians from World Cup 94 , joy to watch.

 

[Gyros Peter]

Reckon I'd have Higuita in goal for free kicks in and around the box (be great watching him argue it out with the rest of them!) and flamboyant pointless risk taking brilliance!

 

[valspoodle]

My life is simple. Watching John Robertson and his team mates and Forest players from many generations has been good enough for me. George Best was pretty good because he had an impish quality, but mostly I'm not bothered about star quality. They play for teams I don't care about, so it's hard to work up any enthusiasm for these blokes.

 

[trentside69]

ronaldinho

My life is simple. Watching John Robertson and his team mates and Forest players from many generations has been good enough for me. George Best was pretty good because he had an impish quality, but mostly I'm not bothered about star quality. They play for teams I don't care about, so it's hard to work up any enthusiasm for these blokes.

John Robertson the most naturally gifted player ever at the city ground.
Maybe even in England

 

[Omar Devone Little]

Longevity has to come into it for me when discussing the GOAT. True greatness is doing it year after year after year.

Players like Maradona, Van Basten, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and George Best were obviously all unbelievable players but their time at the very top was relatively short. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo have basically had 2 decades at the top of the top level. Both of them are hitting 40/50 a season like it's nothing too. Both complete freaks in different ways.

 

[Chappers85]

That Chelsea goal , even the Chelsea fans stood and applauded.

The one with zero back-lift? Very few players of any era could score a goal like that. Magnificent finish!

I think you can only judge players by the era they play in really. Messi is the best of this century, not only for what he achieved at his peak but how long that peak lasted. I know a few people have said he wouldn't be able to live in different eras, and while there might be some truth to that, he rides tackles like no one I've ever seen, particularly when he was younger. Players did try to foul him and most of the time he just got on with it (unlike Cristiano Ronaldo who throws himself to the floor whenever anyone got near him). Having said that, Cristiano Ronaldo is second best player of the last twenty years. Again, you just have to look at the longevity and the sheer numbers are unlike anyone else in history (with the exception of Messi). However, the main difference between the two is that Messi plays for the team, whereas Ronaldo plays for himself (that and Messi has much more natural talent).

Ronaldinho, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazilian) and Theirry Henry would probably be the next rung under for me. If Ronaldinho could have maintained those levels around the mid-2000s for a a few more years he would be competing with those two. Ronaldo if he wasn't blighted by injuries, probably would have been better than anyone. Zidane was obviously superb and pretty consistent throughout, though was obviously prone to a few moments of madness. Henry was amazing for about 5 years but I think there was always a doubt with him in big games (unless he handballed it).

After that you've probably got the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Rivaldo, Suarez, Neymar, Zlatan, Benzema, De Bruyne, and if you want great goalscorers then Lewandowski, David Villa, Aguero, Eto'o and Kane. Players like Kaka or Fernando Torres were brilliant for a couple of years but then seemed to fall of a cliff. Robben, Ribery, Figo, Sneijder, David Silva, Bale, were all very very good. Salah is very good. Rooney and Gerrard (although massively overhyped at times) probably a similar level at their very best. Mbappe is probably already as good as that lot with the potential to be a real all-time great. And not I've even considered defensive players.

But I think if you go much further back even into the 90s, football is very different. We always talk about all the strikers England had in the 90s but then I don't think you could just take that player and put them in the modern game. You need to have more to your game than just finishing now. If Jermaine Defoe had been born 10 years earlier he'd probably have got as many goals as Andy Cole, Ian Wright or Robbie Fowler in the 90s, but instead he played in the 2000s and was never really trusted as first choice at a top club or for England. Similarly, I don't think Cole, Wright or Fowler would be up to much in today's game as they probably didn't have enough of an all-round game and you can't carry a player anymore. Shearer and Collymore on the other hand would be laughing in this era. Les Ferdinand I think would probably still be pretty effective. Sheringham and Le Tissier were very skillful and intelligent players, but probably wouldn't have been athletic enough. I just think the game changes so much not only physically but tactically it's really difficult to compare players even 20-30 years apart, let alone half a century or more. Even in Athletics, sports science is constantly evolving, the tracks get better etc. I know Michael Johnson's 400m record went a little while ago, but what would he have run today? It's impossible to say whether he would go any quicker or not, but what you can say is that he was a second quicker than anyone else of his era. Similarly, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona et al were the best players in the world in their era with the conditions and rules (or application of the rules) of the time.

So while it's fun to discuss, it's entirely subjective and it really is an absolute waste of time, making this my most pointless post ever

 

[Bonfy177]

Brian Rice ?

Just saying.

 

[adam09]

One who doesn't get mentioned as much as others that I always enjoyed was Cesc Fabregas.

 

[Le Juif Rouge]

I hate this GOAT BS, but George Best was by a country mile.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Longevity has to come into it for me when discussing the GOAT. True greatness is doing it year after year after year.

Players like Maradona, Van Basten, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and George Best were obviously all unbelievable players but their time at the very top was relatively short. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo have basically had 2 decades at the top of the top level. Both of them are hitting 40/50 a season like it's nothing too. Both complete freaks in different ways.

The thing is Josef Bican and Gunnar Nordahl could do that too for example (not to mention Puskas and other Hungarians indeed).

Like I said easier to do it in the 1950s than 1960s, and in their situations compared to the situations of others.

Also easier to do it in the modern game compared to in the 1980s or 1990s (depending on the league) though. See how prolifically they scored in World Cups when they didn't have super teams costing billions backing them up, against mostly inferior opposition who would love some of the Real Madrid subs as starters, after changes to offside laws and rules about fouling that benefitted attackers as well. Salah and Haaland score quite a lot themselves nowadays.

I don't think Cristiano Ronaldo was necessarily any more talented than Ronaldo of Brazil or Van Basten (probably less so), but he never got a bad injury, unlike them, and was obsessed with scoring as many as he possibly could.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Ok, maybe not Nordahl (I was assuming he might have in Sweden)!

His International goals per game record was very high though (albeit not playing loads).

You know what I mean anyway I guess.

I wasn't having a go at you Omar anyway - just adding a perspective on comparing outright numbers between different eras and situations.

Maradona even scored a lot when he was playing in Argentina. And Serie A of the 1980s was obviously harder to score in than modern day La Liga (when playing for one of the big two at least).

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Estimation on a forum for goal/assist contributions over whole career (using video/newspapers for assists of older players to get the best estimates apparently). Cruyff and Di Stefano tended to play a deeper role or more of a roving role at least to be fair (Maradona was more of an attacking mid later in his career also).

This one has contributions within a particular decade


% Team Assisted means percentage of their teams goals they assisted I think.
% Team G+A-PK is percentage of their teams goals they scored or assisted, discounting penalty kicks.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Pele and Maradona by sections of their career (probably using seasons for Maradona rather than calendar years I think eg 1984/85 to 1986/87 etc)

 

[PynchonForest]

Football is a team game and I’d say the the most impactful player to every team he’s played for is Ronaldo. He’s dragged his teams to win things.

Individually, who’s the best players is too difficult a question to me but my favourite ever player is Ronaldo (the Brazilian obviously).

Heretofore referred to as Fatty Ronaldo.