Leave the City Ground

[incapable hulk]

I'm 27 and i love the city ground.
My kid sister is a huge forest fan, and only 8. However when i took her to her first game i was struck by her comments that she thought the city ground looked old and dirty.

Damn kids!

She better say these sorts of things tomorrow night. Though I guess with kids they are used to seeing all these new stadia, or places like old trafford- then when they see the city ground, its not the same.

To me the city ground will always be home, though I appreciate the need to at least consider a move now

 

[RRRREDUN]

Dan? What do we really GAIN from owning our ground? We pay nominal rent, get help from the council to keep it up to scratch etc. We own the buildings at the City Ground - just don't own the land, I think. Are we secure? I think so; would the council be able to oust us anyway? If they could, would they be able to sell it to another football club? Direby fans bleat on about them owning their ground. So what? Any assets in terms of the stands etc are wasted - Tesco would NOT want to keep them when they redevelop the site.

 

[Daniel]

Dan? What do we really GAIN from owning our ground? We pay nominal rent, get help from the council to keep it up to scratch etc. We own the buildings at the City Ground - just don't own the land, I think. Are we secure? I think so; would the council be able to oust us anyway? If they could, would they be able to sell it to another football club? Direby fans bleat on about them owning their ground. So what? Any assets in terms of the stands etc are wasted - Tesco would NOT want to keep them when they redevelop the site.

Owning your own ground is like owning your house.

You have the ability to do what you like to it, when you like including improvements of your own doing that you alone will benefit from.

As I have said a number of times today and not one person has come back with a sensible response, why spend out fortunes on an extension of a property they rent? It makes no sense whatsoever!

 

[redmiddo]

The spin machine that is Mark Arthur has been in overdrive about how we cannot stay at the City Ground, it cannot be redeveloped etc etc.

What utter crap. Even a blind person can see how much land is available to build a major new stand on the site of the existing Main Stand. We don't need a 50,000 seater souless bowl to host third rate world cup qualifying group matches. We know the major games would be held in London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

I wish the English bid for ther World Cup nothing but total failure. It fails Gamston fails.

The City Ground was there long before the reign of Doughty and Arthur commenced, and hopefully long after everyone has long forgotten their names. If Arthur told me the world was round I would consider joining the Flat Earth Society.

Trust that man? I would rather eat my own testicles.

Redmiddo-age 50 by the way.

 

[andyred]

The spin machine that is Mark Arthur has been in overdrive about how we cannot stay at the City Ground, it cannot be redeveloped etc etc.

What utter crap. Even a blind person can see how much land is available to build a major new stand on the site of the existing Main Stand. We don't need a 50,000 seater souless bowl to host third rate world cup qualifying group matches. We know the major games would be held in London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

I wish the English bid for ther World Cup nothing but total failure. It fails Gamston fails.

The City Ground was there long before the reign of Doughty and Arthur commenced, and hopefully long after everyone has long forgotten their names. If Arthur told me the world was round I would consider joining the Flat Earth Society.

Trust that man? I would rather eat my own testicles.

Redmiddo-age 50 by the way.

If we redevelop we have to pay for it ourselves. If we do it via the world cup we get a lot of help. Goverment, council and lotto etc.

 

[red robbo]

Dan owing the ground is not like owning a house it is a business, and lots of businesses that lease premises spend fortunes redeveloping them, to make them work for their business model.
Clifford is dead right, re-develope the city ground and the club will pay for it, move the stadium and the clubs investment will be a lot smaller, meaning more investment on the pitch.

 

[big smoke red]

Okay Dan, you keep banging on about owning the ground. Let's look outside our money mad Premier League model for a second. In other European countries a football club is a crucial part of a town or city. And the local authority recognises this. Okay, sometimes it reaches ridiculous quasi-corrupt levels such as Real Madrid selling their training ground to the council for 200 million, which allowed them to pay off their debts and buy some more galacticos. But in Germany, France and Spain the council often owns the ground. It would never evict the club because it realises that the team matters to local pride and identity. Germany is a good model because football is still priced at realistic levels that attract high attendances - including people standing. Has anyone mentioned this - the fact that terracing (in a safe German model) may come back? Worth considering before we all decamp to a land of roundabouts, PC World and themed restaurants.

I don't know the intricacies of the land ownership. What I do know is that Nottingham City Council needs to understand that Forest have done more to put Nottingham on the map than anyone since Robin Hood. Unrealistic, you say. Not really. Not if someone starts a campaign, gets 50,000 signatures, stands in the election, reveals the club statements about the main stand to be propaganda and the local paper discovers that the majority of fans want to stay. Politicians start to shit themselves and that's when the tide begins to turn. But I agree - at the moment there's a vibe of defeatism. And also fantasy. Name one new stadium in the country (that belongs to a club outside the big 4 plus Man City) that you'd actually like to move to? I drove past the Reebok the other day. Jesus, that isn't a football ground. It's a distribution centre conveniently located for the motorway with not an ounce of identity about it. I don't know Bolton as a place but I can't believe it's as soulless as their football club's home. Do you really want this? It's the same for Reading and a host of other new grounds. Someone mentioned Pompey as proof that you don't need money to win things. I think they had a few bob but true, in a freak year they managed to win the cup. But look at Pompey - they have a really old ground with great atmosphere that the big teams hate playing in. The problems they've got - a slope in one penalty box - dwarf anything Forest have to deal with.

All this stuff about owning your own home is Thatcherite bollocks. Why pour money into owning the land? What we need is a new deal for football in Nottingham between the council and the club. That is the way forward. And we should start looking into that suspiciously vague and badly articulated architect's statement. If there really is no way of redeveloping the ground then move we must. But it seems highly unlikely to me that good designers can't come up with an imaginative plan to extend and upgrade one of the most characterful (is that a word?) grounds in the country. And forget this "change is inevitable" bollocks. It depends whether the change is desirable or not. It's the mentality that led to appeasement. We want good change, not giving in to something no-one actually wants but feels they have to go along with.

 

[redmiddo]

If we redevelop we have to pay for it ourselves. If we do it via the world cup we get a lot of help. Goverment, council and lotto etc.

And your point is? Sell your soul to the devil?

 

[jammy]

Everyone keeps mentioning the "eastside" land as a possibilty, where exactly is that? and don't say the east side lol

 

[WatnallRed]

Everyone keeps mentioning the "eastside" land as a possibilty, where exactly is that? and don't say the east side lol

out of hooters go straight over the canal.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

I am confident that once all of the various factors have been taken into account, the right decision will be made for the majority. One of my happiest memories is being hoisted into the back girders at the Trent End to watch Barrett and Birtles change our destiny forever against Liverpool. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your life perspective, the bigger decisions tend not to be steered by the heart. This is particularly true once 'real' politics come into force.

I would dearly love for someone to step forwards with a solid blueprint that makes it possible for us to grow into the space we currently occupy whilst satfisfying all needs, but from what i've read of both sides of the debate so far, i am struggling to see this as reality.

I can already hear the sound of the bulldozers.

 

[jammy]

out of hooters go straight over the canal.

Well there's f*** all there, other than a few factory units... this would actually be a good place, if only road access could be improved somehow, but it would be ideal for people coming on bus/train etc.

 

[RRRREDUN]

I understand that the deal for the new ground involves the acquisition of land with little real value (ie agricultural land) where a new stadium and 4000 odd houses would be built. What's in it for the council? Well the World Cup would be good for Nottingham (would generate millions while the tournament was on AND would put Nottingham back on the map - inward investment etc once the recession was over). Also - let's not ignore this - the council would have an incredible site overlooking the Trent to develop. Also, the new houses would enable some unsuitable housing in the city to be replaced.

The only way Forest could generate enough money to develop the City Ground would be if the council let Doughty buy the land. He would then have to put hotels/houses/flats around it to enable enough money to be available to re-develop the ground. Also, the council would also need to back the compulsory purchase of quite a few houses and businesses - wouldn't make them too popular.

Gamston/Holme Pierpoint etc would upset far fewer people.

If we move, then Doughty would (I imagine) try to be part of the house-building scene, otherwise there would be nothing in it for him (remember that the whole Nottingham Forest thing has cost him £40 odd million and he would definately need to get that back.
These are just minor complications which, given the will, can be ironed out. There is for me, just one question. How ambitious are we? If we are ambitious, there is only one solution.

 

[Flaggers]

Owning your own ground is like owning your house.

You have the ability to do what you like to it, when you like including improvements of your own doing that you alone will benefit from.

As I have said a number of times today and not one person has come back with a sensible response, why spend out fortunes on an extension of a property they rent? It makes no sense whatsoever!

Go on then, Dan - I'll bite.

Why did we build the new Trent End, then?

 

[Daniel]

[quote='Sir' Flagman. ]
Go on then, Dan - I'll bite.

Why did we build the new Trent End, then?
[/quote]a perfect example of why refurbishing is a waste of money. This was built at a minimal cost on silly say back terms. We owe the council this much but for what? A nice extention on their own land. Financially it is of no benefit to the club, half the reason why Doughty and Arthur argued about paying the debt off. Today that is 4 decent players we've missed out on.

Also 4.5million of the clubs money is a little different than 45million don't you think? Plus it makes no difference to the value of nottingham forest. The old cliche we hear very often. Football is all about business, this is a purely financial decision for the good of Forest.
Another sensible question.
Would you, if you became a multi millionaire and give the council 45 million to rebuild the city ground for the love of forest. Bearing in mind you wont owe any of the land and neither will the club?

 

[Flaggers]

So would you rather we hadn't built it?

 

[Jonathan]

England are favourites to get the tournament. Russia and Australia are outside bets, as are the USA.

Most people think it'll be Russia or England for 2018 and USA/Australia in 2022.

I haven't read the whole thread - only up to the end of page two - and I see people mentioning Doughty's pledge to redevelop the main stand if we went up... He did say that, and I'm sure he would do it were it not for the World Cup bid. Problem is, that would only see our capacity rise to something around the 35,000 mark which would be fine for the club.

However, the city wants to host the World Cup and to do that, you need around 45,000 seats. Following the tournament, a new stadium would be reduced to around 38,000 and that is why we want to build a new one.

Like I've said before, I love the City Ground and would regret moving, but in ten years time - even with a new Main Stand - the City Ground would look old and tired and the facilities would be terrible for a Premier League ground.

Brogs spoke of Turf Moor being a 'fortress' which is fair enough, but it's a shithole and they'll have to do a lot of modernisation to meet Premiership requirements in the coming years.

In the past, I've been on the fence about a move and to an extent, I still am. However, I'm falling off one side in the direction of moving. I would need to see concrete plans/designs before I make my full decision, though.

My posts in the last few days have all been about why change would benefit us and why I think it's a good idea. There are far fewer reasons why we should stay, in my opinion.

 

[sebs]

you know these stadium "reductions"... why? surely it is cost to take away assets? or can anyone explain?

 

[It's Baggio]

If we do get a new stadium, I hope we remember to put the under soil heating in, something which slipped Cardiff's mind...

 

[Werwolfoflondon]

Everyone keeps mentioning the "eastside" land as a possibilty, where exactly is that? and don't say the east side lol

To be more specific, it's the large area of land that stretches from the BBC studios/NHS Direct buildings at the northern end, the railway lines next to the Lady Bay Retail Park at the southern end, Lace Way on the western side and Manvers Street to the east.

The land was formerly owned by Nottingham City Council until it was sold to a Guernsey-based property developing company in early 2008. It had previously been under consideration by the council as a potential site for a new shared stadium for us and the Sadpies

Following the sale - and with full approval of the council - it had been earmarked for development as a combination of retail, leisure and office use, but the economic downturn has obviously had an effect on the timescale of anything happening in the foreseeable future.

Should the Gamston issues become insurmountable, it will be interesting to see if Eastside can become an alternave option if it remains undeveloped in the meantime, and if the current owners can be encouraged to become partners.

 

[Randy Bumgardener]

To be more specific, it's the large area of land that stretches from the BBC studios/NHS Direct buildings at the northern end, the railway lines next to the Lady Bay Retail Park at the southern end, Lace Way on the western side and Manvers Street to the east.

The land was formerly owned by Nottingham City Council until it was sold to a Guernsey-based property developing company in early 2008. It had previously been under consideration by the council as a potential site for a new shared stadium for us and the Sadpies

Following the sale - and with full approval of the council - it had been earmarked for development as a combination of retail, leisure and office use, but the economic downturn has obviously had an effect on the timescale of anything happening in the foreseeable future.

Should the Gamston issues become insurmountable, it will be interesting to see if Eastside can become an alternave option if it remains undeveloped in the meantime, and if the current owners can be encouraged to become partners.

And another reason for the 453 to get improved ! I f***ing hate that road !

 

[RedMark]

To be more specific, it's the large area of land that stretches from the BBC studios/NHS Direct buildings at the northern end, the railway lines next to the Lady Bay Retail Park at the southern end, Lace Way on the western side and Manvers Street to the east.

The land was formerly owned by Nottingham City Council until it was sold to a Guernsey-based property developing company in early 2008. It had previously been under consideration by the council as a potential site for a new shared stadium for us and the Sadpies

Following the sale - and with full approval of the council - it had been earmarked for development as a combination of retail, leisure and office use, but the economic downturn has obviously had an effect on the timescale of anything happening in the foreseeable future.

Should the Gamston issues become insurmountable, it will be interesting to see if Eastside can become an alternave option if it remains undeveloped in the meantime, and if the current owners can be encouraged to become partners.

So does it include that bit behind Heart FM ? Up to the back of Lady Bay retail park ?

Isn't there a burnt out warehouse there too ? From what I heard that was an insurance job by the owners to burn the warehouse down, but the insurance company heard and didn't pay out so the geezer was truely f**ked !

 

[red_outlaw]

So does it include that bit behind Heart FM ? Up to the back of Lady Bay retail park ?

Isn't there a burnt out warehouse there too ? From what I heard that was an insurance job by the owners to burn the warehouse down, but the insurance company heard and didn't pay out so the geezer was truely f**ked !

Heart FM does fall within the 'Eastside' area. The Great Northern Railway Warehouse is actually a listed building, as well as being the scene of two murders.

 

[Daniel]

[quote='Sir' Flagman. ]
So would you rather we hadn't built it?
[/quote]You're putting words in my mouth...

1 Stand at a time when the City Ground was almost equal to most football stadia around and there wasn't the money in the game like there is today. Times have changed from then and so has the situation!

 

[Werwolfoflondon]

Heart FM does fall within the 'Eastside' area. The Great Northern Railway Warehouse is actually a listed building, as well as being the scene of two murders.

The owners, Heathcote Holdings, acknowledged the listed status of the building when they purchased the land, and the plan was to completely renovate it and turn it into office space.

The Heart building is seperately leased but falls within Heathcote's freeholding.