Do Loan Sinings Block the Development of our own.

[sedgred]

Before sharing my thoughts, let me say I would have done a Dr Faustus to ensure Forest's survival this season, I cannot think of anything but total and utter disaster for the club, if the trap door swung open and we tumbled through again.

So a huge thanks for Billy Davies for the loan signings he has bought to the club which have been gelled together and allowed us a lifeline.

But the question still reamins as how are our own youngsters development and experience affected by being pushed down the pecking order by the loan signings.

One player in particular who caught my eye the first time I saw him in a reserve game is Matt Thornhill, a developing talent to say the least, how would the experience of the dogfight affect him ?, the other fringe players who are now have been, for the sake of the club omitted from the first team scene. Confidence damaging, career path's blocked, are loan signings in such numbers good or bad in the long term........just a ramble.

 

[tommygaynor]

If they are good enough, they will make it. If we have to buy / loan in players to improve. So be it.

 

[Gary]

I agree, but I think loan signings aren't the only factor in this. Moving to an inevitably tougher league, where big money is spent on players and homegrown youth isn't relied on as heavily. Sometimes teams have no choice but to rely on new signings to stay up or sniff promotion.

 

[Graham]

Before sharing my thoughts, let me say I would have done a Dr Faustus to ensure Forest's survival this season, I cannot think of anything but total and utter disaster for the club, if the trap door swung open and we tumbled through again.

So a huge thanks for Billy Davies for the loan signings he has bought to the club which have been gelled together and allowed us a lifeline.

But the question still reamins as how are our own youngsters development and experience affected by being pushed down the pecking order by the loan signings.

One player in particular who caught my eye the first time I saw him in a reserve game is Matt Thornhill, a developing talent to say the least, how would the experience of the dogfight affect him ?, the other fringe players who are now have been, for the sake of the club omitted from the first team scene. Confidence damaging, career path's blocked, are loan signings in such numbers good or bad in the long term........just a ramble.

In my opinion in the long term they are bad for the development of our younger players. I think given the chance Matt Thornhill, Brendan Moloney and Joe Heath can become first team regulars. I would hate to see any of them move on in search of first team football elsewhere. Having said that i'm delighted with the loan players we now have at the club but hopefully thats a short term thing, a quick fix for the situation that we currently find ourselves in. My hope is for our young talent to play a big part in the future of our club whilst at the same time pushing the club forward to where we all want to be.

 

[the mask of zorro]

Hopefully we stay up, get a decent start next season and they come in and develop.

That is of course in an ideal world, chances are whatever happens, they will be thrown in to a team having to scrap for every point, and not be allowed to develop as they should.

Such is football.

By the way, I was watching the Fester game last week, and there was someone on loan from the scouse scum playing, and he was described as the 'latest off the Anfield production line'. Which is funny, because when I watched them against Chelsea the other night, they seemed to have Jamie Carragher and a load of Dago's.

Just a thought.

 

[sedgred]

By the way, I was watching the Fester game last week, and there was someone on loan from the scouse scum playing, and he was described as the 'latest off the Anfield production line'. Which is funny, because when I watched them against Chelsea the other night, they seemed to have Jamie Carragher and a load of Dago's.

Just a thought.

But that was only the commentator following the Laws of Broadcasting that must not be broken, Liverpool and Manchester United must be mentioned at least every five minutes in a positive manner. This must be accomplished no matter what game is on television, some link must be made between the teams playing and ''Them '' If this does not happen then all hell will break loose, football will end as we know it.

I cannot wait for the day researchers will not have been able to come up with anything and they are reduced to showing us Google Earth maps, just to show the route to Lancashire.

 

[adamthered]

Always makes me laugh when people think Liverpool have a good youth system. They have brought a few players through, but no more than we have, and no way near as many Man Utd or Arsenal

But back to question in point, loan signings are usually brought in when a new manager has been installed and is used as an interim until he can get his own players in. Every manager has a style of play, and will favour certain types of players. But with youth players, until a manager is there that plays to their strengths they wil rarely get a chance

 

[nemesiz]

But the question still reamins as how are our own youngsters development and experience affected by being pushed down the pecking order by the loan signings.

One player in particular who caught my eye the first time I saw him in a reserve game is Matt Thornhill, a developing talent to say the least, how would the experience of the dogfight affect him ?, the other fringe players who are now have been, for the sake of the club omitted from the first team scene. Confidence damaging, career path's blocked, are loan signings in such numbers good or bad in the long term........just a ramble.

Yes. Brendan Moloney immediately comes to mind. The player under Colin Calderwood was playing exceptionally well, and appeared to have cemented his place as a Right-Back until injury and being cup-tied forced him out of the side. With Billy Davies preferring experience over youth, certain players like Matt Thornhill, Brendan Moloney, and Joe Heath have had little chance or opportunity to demonstrate their potential in a match situation. Instead of giving these players a run-in the first team like their rivals Wilson, Chambers, and Lynch, the manager immediately opted to go into the loan market. Now maybe Gunter, Osbourne are playing well but if you read previous match reports you will realise the youth players had excellent games in the past and with the time, and opportunity could have improved further. Instead the precious time, training and match sharpness and fitness are being used to help improve the loan players who are quite frankly unlikely to permanently sign for Nottingham Forest. This also goes for senior players such as Paul Smith, who was replaced by Iain Turner.

I know a couple of youth players that have privately stated to friends that they must leave Nottingham Forest to forward their careers. Although this is typical of football these player were fringe first team members under Colin Calderwood, and appeared to be improving over time. Understandably many players don't make the grade, but under Billy Davies I'm now concerned with the development of youth players. Nottingham Forest cannot buy themselves out of safety, instead must rely on the youth academy and reserves to bolster our side. If the club does goes down to the third tier the majority of senior players will leave, and it will be the youth players that will secure our future.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I thought one of the most important needs in a relegation dog fight is experience?

I'm at the stage where I don't care how we stay up, as long as we do it.

 

[saunders:]]

Its irrelevant if loan signings don't hep the youngsters. I would rather stay up than play the likes of Thornhill and Maloney. Plus, maybe they benefit as they can learn from the calibre of player we bring in on loan. Just a thought.

 

[Randy Bumgardener]

On the flip side of the coin, the dogfight could also ruin a players confidence ! If the team lose repeatedly, they play badly and get relegated it could destroy the lads confidence without him being a fair shot. If we were mid table or up, we could afford the luxury of blending them in, just not yet !

 

[dellaroc]

I think we always look a better team with Thornhill on the field.

He might not be the most individually talented player we have, but he's a real "just one of eleven" type player.

 

[alabamared]

I think Billy just realises that right here right now is a time for men and not boys.

Next season will be different, notice Billy keeps banging on about the potential of the group of players he has.

 

[garibaldi]

The loan signings are the reason we're not already relegated.

The Forest youngsters are crap and have been for a number of years.

 

[ThePatriot]

Before sharing my thoughts, let me say I would have done a Dr Faustus to ensure Forest's survival this season, I cannot think of anything but total and utter disaster for the club, if the trap door swung open and we tumbled through again.

So a huge thanks for Billy Davies for the loan signings he has bought to the club which have been gelled together and allowed us a lifeline.

But the question still reamins as how are our own youngsters development and experience affected by being pushed down the pecking order by the loan signings.

One player in particular who caught my eye the first time I saw him in a reserve game is Matt Thornhill, a developing talent to say the least, how would the experience of the dogfight affect him ?, the other fringe players who are now have been, for the sake of the club omitted from the first team scene. Confidence damaging, career path's blocked, are loan signings in such numbers good or bad in the long term........just a ramble.

Sedg.

Your comments amaze me at times. The previous system of chucking kids in the shop window didn't work. We needed experience, not kids. I imagine BD's apprenticeship to full time football will be longer than mosts, but its good he doesn't take chances.

The rule is that you farm them out at the right level and charge more than you are actually paying them in wages. It works.

 

[philanderer]

obviously the loan signings we have made have been done to keep us up due to our never ending injuries throughout the squad,if they manage to keep us up then justifacation is merited,also if they keep us up then this will show the developing ones within forest how it is done hence it will not hinder the development of our own but bring it to fruition and the loan signings will be on a temporary basis so our "developing ones" will be able to take over the mantle and lead us to improvement next season. Did you know the moon was made of cheese aswell.

 

[T.B.T.]

I hear what you're saying Sedge and, as we know, Billy did what he had to do to strengthen our existing squad the only way possible given the current situation. His objective is survival by any means and by bringing in the loanees he has given us the best chance possible.

Billy has taken a huge risk and it seems to have paid off big time. Bringing in so many new faces at a critical time of the season meant that our squad haven't had the time to train and work together and we've had to trust that Billy knows what he's doing.

With respects to blocking the development of our own, I would argue that survival in the Championship is giving 'our own' the best opportunity for further development. This is a hard and cruel business at times and those who succeed need to be giving 100% all the time. If they're not up to it, for whatever reason, then they need to be nurtured at the right level at the right time until they are.

The time will come to develop each of our players to realise their potential and Billy will define and shape the squad the way he sees fit.

 

[sedgred]

Sedg.

Your comments amaze me at times. The previous system of chucking kids in the shop window didn't work. We needed experience, not kids. I imagine BD's apprenticeship to full time football will be longer than mosts, but its good he doesn't take chances.

The rule is that you farm them out at the right level and charge more than you are actually paying them in wages. It works.

Hang on a bit....

Before sharing my thoughts, let me say I would have done a Dr Faustus to ensure Forest's survival this season, I cannot think of anything but total and utter disaster for the club, if the trap door swung open and we tumbled through again.

So a huge thanks for Billy Davies for the loan signings he has bought to the club which have been gelled together and allowed us a lifeline.

But the question still reamins as how are our own youngsters development and experience affected by being pushed down the pecking order by the loan signings.

One player in particular who caught my eye the first time I saw him in a reserve game is Matt Thornhill, a developing talent to say the least, how would the experience of the dogfight affect him ?, the other fringe players who are now have been, for the sake of the club omitted from the first team scene. Confidence damaging, career path's blocked, are loan signings in such numbers good or bad in the long term........just a ramble.

It was only mulling a thought about, I did think I had made it pretty clear at the start, how I supported what Davies had achieved 8)

 

[Carvel]

If we went down it would spell absolute disaster for Forest, as you said. So, we can't afford to give them the experience they probably need at this time. We should do whatever it takes to stay in this league. When we are coasting in the top half, give them a a go then, like Harty did.

 

[homer]

I can understand what you mean about the loans stopping the youngsters from developing, but like some said, i think it's about timing.

For me the best time to start blood the young players would be the last few games of a season, where hopefully your team was safe, had won the league, safe in the play offs, or had nothing to play for. Unfortautaly, Forest have not had that chance for a few years now. If we had prepared properly last summer would have not have found ourselves in this sitiutaion and not had to resort to the loan market.

If the young players are good enough, they will find themselves in the team at some time. Let Davis build a strong team in the summer, where we can then bleed in the good young players we have.

 

[Erik]

There is no point stifling your own talent at the expense of loan signings. Bringing through one or two youngsters a season is about ideal in my eyes, but at times this season we have had 3 or 4 'kids' playing.

We also forget that Mcgugan and Cohen can also be classed as 'youngsters' still.

Besides which I don't care what we do to stay up this year. Then we can use the summer to build a squad good enough for the push next year.

 

[RRRREDUN]

Stay up first, then look at the youngsters again. The 4 mentioned have real potential. I think Thornhill is a better bet than McGugan - more work-rate and no little skill. These players should have the opportunity away from the pressures of a dogfight.

 

[petaco]

As long as Davies is in charge they might as well close the academy. Non of the players will be brought through.

 

[mouldy]

In the long term it doesn't matter because they are going to return to their clubs anyway (unless we sign them) it is essential we have a bit of expierence and proven players in the squad. We cannot afford to gamble on players like Matt Thornhill etc. because inconsistency comes into play. It has been the case with matt Thornhill since he came through hence no sustained role in the side.

We tried bringing through players like Sinclair, Newbold etc. etc. but it was losing us points playing them and having Blackstocks, Gunters etc. is much better they can handle the pressure better and they are proven talents with expierence. We cannot afford the gambles and the youth players don't deserve to be shoved into a dogfight with the weight of the world on their shoulders it could crush them and ruin careers.

 

[Brolin]

Now maybe Gunter, Osbourne are playing well but if you read previous match reports you will realise the youth players had excellent games in the past and with the time, and opportunity could have improved further. Instead the precious time, training and match sharpness and fitness are being used to help improve the loan players who are quite frankly unlikely to permanently sign for Nottingham Forest. This also goes for senior players such as Paul Smith, who was replaced by Iain Turner.

Nottingham Forest cannot buy themselves out of safety, instead must rely on the youth academy and reserves to bolster our side.

I think you've made the best possible case for avoiding loan signings, but I still cannot agree.

Forgive me for using a cliché, but you can't have your cake and eat it. There is little evidence to suggest that we would have been in a better position, in both the short and long term, if we'd stuck to playing Moloney, Heath and Thornhill. You can afford to have one, maybe two players, learning on the job, yet Forest were already dangerously overloaded with youth. It's nice to have a developing side and I agree that Moloney was unlucky to lose his place, but we would have almost certainly gone down and as a result found it harder to produce players in the future.

The young players having 'excellent' games was often in vain, as we succumbed to a cuter, experienced and more organised opposition. The example I would use is the Charlton game at home compared to the game against Coventry this weekend. I think a Davies side would have found a way to beat Charlton, whereas I don't think CC's team would have had the strength to improve on a lacklustre first half performance.

I'm in favour of getting in loan players who can provide us with genuine quality that isn't otherwise available at the club. Gunter, Blackstock and Anderson have done this for us. Would you rather have Moloney or Gunter playing? My primary objective would be to win the game and Gunter, despite Moloney being a serious prospect, is the man I would select to do it. Blackstock has been the catalyst for our recent run of form. Anderson's been excellent, particularly away from home, while Camp worked a bit of magic.

Having replied some days later, I have the benefit of now knowing that it was an assist from Blackstock that got us the win this weekend, and that we're a lot closer to safety than when the weekend began. So the irony is as things stand Forest will manage to buy themselves out of safety, as the loan signings we have no doubt paid substantial fees for are playing a massive part.

As long as Davies is in charge they might as well close the academy. Non of the players will be brought through.

I think this will be the new thing that the anti-Davies camp will use. After the initial cries that Earnshaw would be sold, which now looks to be untrue (notice after the Bristol game that Earnie was the first person Davies goes up to and hugs), we were then told that Forest would become a long ball team. Davies got his targetman to give us another option, and it is clear that we're still a footballing side. If anything, the targetman has facilitated better football because we tend to keep the ball in attacking positions for longer.

Someone touched upon it earlier in the thread, the academy hasn't produced a Premiership quality player since the days of Reid and Dawson - are we really missing out on blooding mediocre players? I don't think so. I appreciate they have to play to improve, but that can be done with a good loan spell and the occasional bit of action here, rather than throwing them in at the deep end which can be damaging.

I have a lot of faith in Billy Davies and I really hope the people who were so quick to want rid of him after we lost to Derby are willing to give the man a chance. He can't express his desire to succeed here and his respect for the club anymore than he does in his interviews.

We've had false dawns before and I'm not saying that we'll do anything dramatic, but I truly believe that we've got the right man in the job this time.