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£60m debt to ND

My biggest criticism of him is that he doesn't seek outside investment. He has the clubs best interests at heart but it seems like he doesn't have the necessary cash alone to push us to the next level
 
Maybe because football's not really an "industry". Its not really anything like mining coal or making mobile phones is it.
 
He certainly seems to be keeping the club afloat; and an investment of £5.5m in new players, whilst remaining solvent (thanks to the Chairman's loans) is to be welcomed in the current financial climate.

It certainly goes to show that the major cost involved in Forest appears to be player wages - and that attracting new players by providing the right financial incentives could be difficult.

One interesting thing though is that they don't mention the new (and larger) sponsorship agreements with Victor Chandler, Green King, Kitbag and Money Shop, all of which - you would think - would provide a significant commercial boost to the club coffers. I suppose those will come in the next set of accounts (i.e. this season) so those next figures may well be somewhat better reading than these.

It does go to show that we'd be in trouble without the Chairman, though.
 
zigga-zagga said:
It's part of the leisure and tourist industry. Industry doesn't always mean manufacturing.
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My point is football is different, its not just a business, nor should people expect it to be. It'd be better to compare it to a high maintenance Mrs that needs spending on constantly and "attending" regularly lol

Antonios Gubba said:
Also this and this.

Interesting reading.

Praise the Lord !
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Makes you wonder just how the hell other clubs with no sugar daddy and no storming attendances like we get, actually manage to survive, never mind compete with us :confused:
 
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what happens when he wants to sell, will he write the debt off or want his money back? If he wants his money back no-one will ever buy us and we'll die.

Our lives in one mans hands, we'd better be nice to him.

p.s anyone else think this has been released in time for January sales disappointment appeasal?
 
Robbie Gibbons said:
what happens when he wants to sell, will he write the debt off or want his money back? If he wants his money back no-one will ever buy us and we'll die.

Our lives in one mans hands, we'd better be nice to him.

p.s anyone else think this has been released in time for January sales disappointment appeasal?
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Yes, me! 100per cent.
 
Robbie Gibbons said:
what happens when he wants to sell, will he write the debt off or want his money back? If he wants his money back no-one will ever buy us and we'll die.

Our lives in one mans hands, we'd better be nice to him.

p.s anyone else think this has been released in time for January sales disappointment appeasal?
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That's pretty much the deal. Except for the january bit; it's still november so it's two and a half months too early for that.
 
RufusTFirefly said:
That's pretty much the deal. Except for the january bit; it's still november so it's two and a half months too early for that.
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ok, maybe to coincide with the revelation he's about to sell us to someone who will kill us.

Either way i'm not having lunch as a protest against this.
 
Until ManUre, Citeh & Chelski are reined-in and the Prem made more egalitarian and competitive I would not expect any other Club chairmen to chuck money at their clubs. Unfortunately as was noted on another thread while the Prem spins money for the UK economy nobody is going to change the way they operate.
 
Were pretty lucky to have a chairman who will put the money in but still make a loss, its quite fickle to moan about no investment on new players when you see how much was put in last year alone! But still one or two wouldn't hurt :D
 
NFFC Johan said:
Were pretty lucky to have a chairman who will put the money in but still make a loss, its quite fickle to moan about no investment on new players when you see how much was put in last year alone! But still one or two wouldn't hurt :D
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I dont think the criticism of doughty is generally related to how much money he puts in. Its more his decisions, and the net result of those that people get upset about.

Everyone makes mistakes though, and hopefully now doughtys made enough of those to finally start getting stuff right


(just sack marthur, im sure he'll get a few years of goodwill for that alone :D )
 
So is this good news, or does it prove that the club has been badly run under the current regime?


Not got a lot to show for the debt we owe him have we?

How do other smaller clubs with less income survive, continue to invest in their team.

Look at the likes of Swansea, Wigan and Doncaster who have come up from the bottom division, invested in the side with a much lower fan base on top of building a new stadium?

I wonder how much of that money has been spent on the bad mangerial appointments he has made?

Proves he has tried his best but lets be honest he is not a succesful Chairman as we are in far more debt (which is only growing under him) so as I have said they should be looking at the way they run the club as it doesnt seem to being run well. Perhaps Mark Arthur should address this! Well ND did appoint Arthur.

Glad the new training facilities are going well - that does seem money well invested....but its not as if we are the only club in the country that has done that.......Those type of facilites have saved Crewe over the years, it was a natural progression we have had to make..

But we cant use that as an excuse for them taking the eye off the ball last January and again in the summer.

Funny I only recently mentioned the Accounts not being published, glad they have shown them, will be interesting to see the breakdown... But one things I cant understand turnover £14.7m yet ND provided £13.4m in loans?

Not sure if the accounts include the Kitbag deal, Greene King, Bridgford end sponsor, extended Victor Chandler sponsor. And Sky have increased money this season

At the end of the day, surely we can question how much he has actually put in / how much he has guaranteed!

And until he does get his money back I am sure he will survive on the Loan Interest payments (based on 60m?) and (based on what some say) the tax incentives for his other businesses as the club is and continues to lose soooo much money!

The money is "due" in a couple of years, just time for the batch of promising youngsters to come through from the Academy for the club to sell on and replace them with over the hill players (just like last time)!

Shame ND looks to be in for the long haul, cant see a Takeover!
 
Again another thing that confuses me....if he is doesn’t expect money back (ha ha) then instead of the loaning money to cover whatever hole of money we have lost each season...why can’t he do the following I am asking the questions in basic layman terms, as like most things (apart from moaning) I am no authority on finances

Could he

A) Donate money / provide money as a gift. I understand this has been done at other clubs

or

B) SPONSORSHIP -

Instead of the club finding the £1.5m to invest in new training facilities....why doesn’t Nigel Doughty pay for it (on a sponsorship basis) and call it the Nigel Doughty Academy, then he is really paying for our future and in the meantime the money saved can be used for investing in the team?

In the same vein - Instead of the Bridgford end, he could have given us a big (over the odds of what the likes of Money Shop would pay) investment and call it the Nigel Doughty Stand....that could of course still happen for the Main Stand if we don’t get a new ground - but I very much doubt he will!

C) Why didn’t he just pay off the Council debt for the Trent End years ago and add that to what we owe him.... especially at a time the Council threatened to take us to court during Paul Harts time as we were not paying it back), Surely this would have saved us £1000s in interest payments??

I think all of the above would mean him actually investing his own money in, and if he did I for one would then see that money and actually be thankful for it!
 
Red Widdow said:
Could he

A) Donate money / provide money as a gift. I understand this has been done at other clubs
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Two reasons, mainly; firstly, UEFA (primarily driven by Michel Platini) are brining in new financial rules so that clubs won't be able to take such lump sums in future, they will have to balance their books - this is mainly aimed at the Abramovich/Sheikh Mansour's of this world.

Secondly, by declaring the money as a loan, and (of course) taking a return in interest on the money loaned, our Chairman then reduces his liability for tax purposes. This is quite normal behaviour.

He has, for the last several years, each year increased the repayment date by a further year, so that the date of repayment is put back each time.

In theory, if someone wanted to buy the club (and the Chairman wanted to sell, of course) then they would probably have to pay the £60m plus the current market value of the club and its assets.

Even with £60m of "debt" (and I use that word loosely, as it isn't debt to anyone other than the Chairman) Forest could still be an attractive proposition for an investor, especially if we were able to reach the Premier League.
 
Red Widdow said:
Again another thing that confuses me....if he is doesn’t expect money back (ha ha) then instead of the loaning money to cover whatever hole of money we have lost each season...why can’t he do the following I am asking the questions in basic layman terms, as like most things (apart from moaning) I am no authority on finances

Could he

A) Donate money / provide money as a gift. I understand this has been done at other !
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How many times a year do we have to bounce this one about?

Never, never ever do you give a gift or donation to a commercial organaisation! Why? Because it becomes liable for tax and good old HMRC will want 20% of it!

Put it in as a loan and it contributes to the loss (as does accrued interest) and keeps it out of HMRCs hands.

The benifit for ND is that if the club for example went into admin then he could claim tax relief on the amount lost by way of unrepaid loans and interest so he will effectively get 40% back from HMRC. I am assuming that ND is a higher rate tax payer.:)

That's the way it works.
 
alabamared said:
How many times a year do we have to bounce this one about?

Never, never ever do you give a gift or donation to a commercial organaisation! Why? Because it becomes liable for tax and good old HMRC will want 20% of it!

Put it in as a loan and it contributes to the loss (as does accrued interest) and keeps it out of HMRCs hands.

The benifit for ND is that if the club for example went into admin then he could claim tax relief on the amount lost by way of unrepaid loans and interest so he will effectively get 40% back from HMRC. I am assuming that ND is a higher rate tax payer.:)

That's the way it works.
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So what about B?
 
Red Widdow said:
So what about B?
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It's pretty much the same sponsorship money is only the same as a gift and has no tax advantage for the individual. The only time an idividual can claim tax on a donation is if it is to a registered charity.

If the sponsorship is by a company then the company can claim it is a cost of advertising and put it against profits.

ND is doing it the way that any owner / director of a Ltd Company would put money into his business. It's standard practice.

And C falls into the same trap.
 
RedTom said:
Im guessing that would be classed as income for Forest, and would therefore count as us making a mega profit, on which we would get taxed..?
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That's what I was thinking, a loan from ND is not classed as income, whereas sponsorship would be seen as income, and becomes taxable.
 
Th PR from the City Ground likes everyone to believe that £60m has come directly out of the saviours pocket....more importantly all out the goodness of his "red" heart.

At the end of the day after 11-years what does Nigel Doughty want?

He has in the past ran the club as if it was in admin, and he still lost money and we ended up in League One!

He has tried to do it on the cheap, but still lost money!

The only time he has had recent success in the Championship was to spend (approx) £5.5m -yes we lost money again, but we had success and that took us to third. So for whatever reason he has tried to go down lets do it without investing in players route again!

The financial climate is now even harsher, yet players wages, agent fees, transfer fees seem to be immune - Well for the quality players we need that is)

AND we are still waiting for him to follow through on getting the club back into the Premier league.....and of course when we are there we can reap the rewards BUT also h will then have to spend more than we ever have in wages and fees just to try to avoid relegation!

You have to ask, does ND really want it???? After 11 years of failing to deliver, we are still unsure what he wants and all we are left with is more and more debt each season, not only that we should all be grateful to the saviour for it!!
 
Red Widdow said:
Th PR from the City Ground likes everyone to believe that £60m has come directly out of the saviours pocket....more importantly all out the goodness of his "red" heart.
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So where has it come from then?
 
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