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Thread: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by VAR

      
  1. #1
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    Default Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by VAR

    I hope the link works!





    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f...a17974ea3d8e90

    If not - here is an excerpt of the relevant points:

    Take last week’s entertaining cup tie between Chelsea and Nottingham Forest, which the Londoners won 2-0. There seemed to me a grave injustice against the Championship side, which occurred in the 24th minute with the score already 1-0 to Chelsea.

    Forest broke and the ball was slipped through to their young striker Alex Mighten in the Chelsea penalty area. Mighten went down under a challenge from Fikayo Tomori and the referee, Peter Bankes, pointed to the spot. The matter was referred to VAR to ascertain that it had indeed been a foul. Having viewed the footage, however, the panel noticed that Mighten was marginally offside when the ball was played to him. The decision, then, was that the penalty be overturned and an indirect free kick awarded to Chelsea.

    Forest were short-changed in at least one of three ways. First, and most obviously, if the game had been played at their ground the penalty would have stood because VAR was available only to Premier League clubs playing at home, which seems unfair.

    Second, even if the referee, Mr Bankes, had spotted the hairline offside, he had not blown for it and his duty would have been to punish the more serious transgression, ie the foul on Mighten. Being in an offside position is not in itself an offence. The question then is did the foul occur at the time Mighten gathered the ball, or as he was about to do so, or had Tomori started his lunge before Mighten had properly collected the ball?

    The three things seemed to happen simultaneously and the rules are a little opaque. At the very worst for Forest, the supposed offside would have been awarded but Tomori either booked or sent off for his foul. Many referees would tell you that it is still, however, a penalty, because that is the more serious offence.

    Then there’s this. The VAR had been commissioned into activity to judge whether or not Tomori had fouled his man. Should the panel not then have stuck to that simple brief? Instead, they spotted an offside. How far back in time should VAR go? Two seconds? Five seconds? Twenty seconds? What if there had been an infringement farther back in time? Should VAR have adjudicated on that too? If this seems nitpicking, I apologise, but these sort of uncertainties, to my mind, render VAR a big problem for the game — which I believe is best played out in a real, objective time, despite what Bergson might contend.


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Even after reviewing video evidence, it's still unclear what the rules of VAR are and what they are taking into account in their decision.

    It's too subjective and for that reason we should just allow the 3 men on the pitch to judge it for themselves in real time and keep the game flowing without all these disruptions.

    For where the ball is cleared off the goal-line and hard tackles it's great to have a look at to make the right decisions. For most other things like accidental handballs and offsides, it's quite a painful process.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    I don’t think that is correct at all is it?

    Why would Tomori have been sent off? He didn’t come anywhere near committing a red card offence. It was such a minimal foul (if it even was one) I wouldn’t even give it a yellow card.

    I don’t think it could still be a penalty either because the ball has to be in play. The first offence is always given. Tomori could have two footed him and been sent off, it would still be a Chelsea free kick for offside.


  5. #4

    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Just rewind the game to the 90's please, where there was none of this bollocks & players could tackle too.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    VAR is purely there for the capitalist profiteers who are running and ruining the game.
    The providers of match day live action via the telly to armchair couch potatoes see VAR as adding to the tension.
    The gaming houses see VAR as a way of proving that an event has or hasn't happened and thereby providing evidence to support them when they don't pay out on bets.
    There is nothing in VAR for the genuine supporter who goes to the match.
    In the end, why bother attending?
    You can't celebrate a goal for whatever time it takes VAR to rule it a goal or not.
    As for the poor old on-pitch officials, they are being overruled by someone in a warm office hundreds of miles away, with dozens of big screens and countless slow-mo action replays from every angle you can imagine.
    The ref and linos last vestiges of authority have been eliminated.
    "Players will not be allowed to petition the ref to check with VAR" was the mantra from bosses.
    What happens at every toss and turn?
    The players petition the refs...
    I don't know when or even if VAR will be consigned to the dustbin, but if it isn't then it will be the live game that is finished.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by adam09 View Post
    I don’t think that is correct at all is it?

    Why would Tomori have been sent off? He didn’t come anywhere near committing a red card offence. It was such a minimal foul (if it even was one) I wouldn’t even give it a yellow card.

    I don’t think it could still be a penalty either because the ball has to be in play. The first offence is always given. Tomori could have two footed him and been sent off, it would still be a Chelsea free kick for offside.
    The ball was in play as the ref had decided there was no previous offence.
    Therefore it was a penalty.
    As to a red or yellow - who cares?
    A foul was committed in the box that denied a goal scoring opportunity from developing.
    A foul in the box is either an indirect free kick, or a penalty.


  8. #7

    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Sinister View Post
    The ball was in play as the ref had decided there was no previous offence.
    Therefore it was a penalty.
    As to a red or yellow - who cares?
    A foul was committed in the box that denied a goal scoring opportunity from developing.
    A foul in the box is either an indirect free kick, or a penalty.
    Didn't they bring in a double jeopardy rule so that a player can't be sent off when a penalty is awarded as it would be regarded as punishing the offending team twice, or was that just something they tried in a World Cup or something?


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    Didn't they bring in a double jeopardy rule so that a player can't be sent off when a penalty is awarded as it would be regarded as punishing the offending team twice, or was that just something they tried in a World Cup or something?
    Only if the defender makes a legitimate attempt to get the ball. That's a yellow. Anything else is still a sending off and penalty/free kick

    By "relegation battle", do you mean 7th, 12th or 14th?

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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Red Till Dead View Post
    Didn't they bring in a double jeopardy rule so that a player can't be sent off when a penalty is awarded as it would be regarded as punishing the offending team twice, or was that just something they tried in a World Cup or something?
    I believe that this rule still applies.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    As far as VAR is concerned, I'd give those in the control room 15 seconds in which to watch the footage and come up with a reason why the ref's decision should be overturned.

    If they can't do it in that timescale then it isn't an obvious mistake. No more 3 minute delays while some chump flicks back and forth between 2 frames for an eternity.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Rugby Union & Cricket seem to have got this sorted a long time ago...neither go to the lengths that football go to to find reasons to disallow goals...


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Some time ago there was a rule that the 'keeper had about 6 seconds to release the ball. Now they are able to play their own game, running round the penalty area.

    Of course, in the golden age of the game, they had to bounce the ball a few times before releasing it with a mighty boot upfield. None of this pansy possession stuff for our real men in the woolly pullies.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy22 View Post
    Even after reviewing video evidence, it's still unclear what the rules of VAR are and what they are taking into account in their decision.

    It's too subjective and for that reason we should just allow the 3 men on the pitch to judge it for themselves in real time and keep the game flowing without all these disruptions.

    For where the ball is cleared off the goal-line and hard tackles it's great to have a look at to make the right decisions. For most other things like accidental handballs and offsides, it's quite a painful process.
    We were better off before.. We're questioning VAR more than refereeing decisions previously. Unfortunatley the genie is out of the bottle and another sport has been ruined..


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    The point about how far back to go is interesting. The ball was played to mighten and he was fouled fairly soon after, that was the way it happened. What if he was 30 yards down the pitch recurved the ball in an offside position but ran it for 20 seconds and got brought down. Do you go back then or just make the decision on the actual foul. Is the cut off 2 seconds? 10 seconds? 20? A minute? Or are they just making it up as they go along?


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    They check for “offences by the attacking team” in build up to goals and penalty decisions and that includes offside.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by adam09 View Post
    They check for “offences by the attacking team” in build up to goals and penalty decisions and that includes offside.
    How far do they go back though? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? A minute?


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Both offsides were marginal.

    Without VAR, one is given and one isn't, so Forest get a penalty at 0-1 and it's maybe a more entertaining game.

    Presumably VAR decisions equal themselves out in the long run, but it's a pity it didn't happen in the short run. Would have been nice if VAR had overruled the linesman in the second half and reinstated Yates's goal.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    Just rewind the game to the 90's please, where there was none of this bollocks & players could tackle too.
    You can't, because everything is adapted for the snowflakes that like to complain about everything and nothing nowadays.


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    Default Re: Great comment style article in The Times today about Forest being hard done by by

    Quote Originally Posted by GOBIAS View Post
    How far do they go back though? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? A minute?
    For Liverpool - 2 seconds, against - 17 minutes.


 

 

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