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  1. #51
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
    The People's Republic of Putney?!?!?

    Are they in league with the Tooting Popular Front?

    No mate, theyíre opponents of the Putney PeoplesĎ Republic.

    ĄI believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialismď

    ó Joe Strummer

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Labour need to stop pretending they're a party of the working class, drop all the outdated 20th Century Marxist bollocks and accept that their strongholds are now the metropolitan liberal elite areas. If they went with a -rejoin the EU/globalisation is good/climate change needs urgently addressing- agenda, I reckon they'd gain back some credibility.

    Stand Firm And Strike Hard

  4. #53
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Labour need to stop pretending they're a party of the working class, drop all the outdated 20th Century Marxist bollocks and accept that their strongholds are now the metropolitan liberal elite areas. If they went with a -rejoin the EU/globalisation is good/climate change needs urgently addressing- agenda, I reckon they'd gain back some credibility.
    They are going to struggle to drop the "20th Century Marxist bollocks" because that philosophy is still dominant in the Humanities Departments of academia. To make it worse it has now morphed into intersectional cultural Marxism where society is viewed by large sections of the metropolitan elites as an existential war between the oppressed and the oppressor in every aspect of life. They decide on who is the oppressed, side with them at dinner parties, and it eases their conscience regarding their personal wealth.


  5. #54
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsy-bitsy Bonatini Yellow Polkadot Bikini View Post
    It was. There was a 6 month continuous membership eligibility requirement the second time around in 2017. First time around (where this whole disaster was seeded) no such requirements existed. In fact you needn't have even been a member to vote, so long as you'd paid the £3 affiliate fee (Corbyn won over 80% of the affiliate vote).
    It was irrelevant as he also won 49.6% of the membership votes. The next was 22.7%. Even if cooper had pulled out and every one of her supporters from within the membership had switched to Burnham they still only would have had 44.9%.


  6. #55
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    I think what Francis is trying to say is that just to get a labour leader in as PM even if he is just going to do what the Tories would do what is the point? The labour members at the time voted Corbyn at the time because he was the only thing who was actually opposing austerity and not just Cameron in a red tie.

    Apologies to Francis if that isn’t what he meant.


  7. #56
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by GOBIAS View Post
    I think what Francis is trying to say is that just to get a labour leader in as PM even if he is just going to do what the Tories would do what is the point? The labour members at the time voted Corbyn at the time because he was the only thing who was actually opposing austerity and not just Cameron in a red tie.

    Apologies to Francis if that isn’t what he meant.
    Two reasons:

    1) A Labour leader in power who is a more Tory than Jeremy Corbyn is going to be able to deliver at least *some* of the left wing causes by virtue of being in power whereby a Corbyn-like figure won't be. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
    2) A Labour leader more centrist that still loses an election to the Tories is going to find it easier to get cross-party support to oppose certain government plans. Lib Dems, SNP etc could have brought down the Tory govt with Labour but none of them wanted to put Corbyn in power, even if his temporary stewardship was limited to getting a 2nd Brexit ref through only.

    .k I m
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  8. #57
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Labour haven't been in power for a whole term once in my lifetime other than the New Labour years. The past cant be recreated, but they wont be in government without being pragmatic and building a consensus which includes groups who dont share most of their vision.


  9. #58

    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Labour haven't been in power for a whole term once in my lifetime other than the New Labour years. The past cant be recreated, but they wont be in government without being pragmatic and building a consensus which includes groups who dont share most of their vision.
    Tory scum.


  10. #59
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    I know plenty idiots who vote labour and plenty intelligent conservatives. And visa versa.

    Donít see the link really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    What? So your assumption is that as people get more educated they become more socialist inclined? Come off it?

    The evidence suggests that as people get older they tend to be more conservative, which implies that wisdom and experience rather than education kicks in.
    Well, I must say, Iím a little bit confused now. Iíve seen page after page of peopleís assertions that the storyís won because the delivered a simple message, that Labours policies were too complex to appeal to an electorate that couldnít understand them...but when I link this to a poor standard of education itís pooh-poohed?


  11. #60
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    Well, I must say, Iím a little bit confused now. Iíve seen page after page of peopleís assertions that the storyís won because the delivered a simple message, that Labours policies were too complex to appeal to an electorate that couldnít understand them...but when I link this to a poor standard of education itís pooh-poohed?
    https://youtu.be/6I_ZhGHxnHQ

    Oh FFS.

  12. #61

    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonalair View Post
    Well that was a fucking uplifting way to start the weekend.


  13. #62
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    Two reasons:

    1) A Labour leader in power who is a more Tory than Jeremy Corbyn is going to be able to deliver at least *some* of the left wing causes by virtue of being in power whereby a Corbyn-like figure won't be. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
    2) A Labour leader more centrist that still loses an election to the Tories is going to find it easier to get cross-party support to oppose certain government plans. Lib Dems, SNP etc could have brought down the Tory govt with Labour but none of them wanted to put Corbyn in power, even if his temporary stewardship was limited to getting a 2nd Brexit ref through only.
    I get that but what Francis says still exists. People still believe the last 40 years of neoliberalism isn’t working and want something different. So why would they vote for a leader who is a continuation when they believe he/she will be part of the problem?

    If Sabri Lamouchi was up for manager of the year on SPOTY next year would you just vote for klopp as he has more chance of winning?


  14. #63
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    Well, I must say, Iím a little bit confused now. Iíve seen page after page of peopleís assertions that the storyís won because the delivered a simple message, that Labours policies were too complex to appeal to an electorate that couldnít understand them...but when I link this to a poor standard of education itís pooh-poohed?
    I wasnít part of those discussions and looking at your comment cold, it just looked a tad pompous to be honest.

    Labour lost so badly because for whatever reason they failed to grasp that the election was a re-run of brexit which in turn was about immigration. Nothing more, nothing less. People will try to over complicate it, but I canít see much further from that as the core reason.

    To your point on labour policies, I donít think most of the electorate knew what they really were never mind understood them.

    It wonít be education that makes people look at socialist policies , it will be abject poverty. As much of that as there is, the screw hasnít been turned enough yet. The brits have a high threshold for taking shit unlike the french and Spanish. We donít mind a bit of Ďyes sirí.


  15. #64
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
    Labour quite simply need to do whatever it takes to get elected.

    Forget including ridiculous policies like free broadband for everyone in their manifesto and go popularist

    They can switch leader and change tack once they are in power
    That's exactly it... first job is to pick an electable leader the second is to tell the electorate what they want to hear, it's really that simple.

    Sent from my SM-J415FN using Tapatalk


  16. #65
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Carvel View Post
    I wasnít part of those discussions and looking at your comment cold, it just looked a tad pompous to be honest.

    Labour lost so badly because for whatever reason they failed to grasp that the election was a re-run of brexit which in turn was about immigration. Nothing more, nothing less. People will try to over complicate it, but I canít see much further from that as the core reason.

    To your point on labour policies, I donít think most of the electorate knew what they really were never mind understood them.

    It wonít be education that makes people look at socialist policies , it will be abject poverty. As much of that as there is, the screw hasnít been turned enough yet. The brits have a high threshold for taking shit unlike the french and Spanish. We donít mind a bit of Ďyes sirí.
    And it was about immigration mainly because a compliant media has for many years peddled the trope that immigration is responsible for all that ails the country, and the influx of immigrants is why living standards in the U.K. have dropped.

    Which, of course, is crap.


  17. #66
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonalair View Post
    So he blames anyone but Labour/Corbyn for the election defeat. Irony.

    Monbiot has been sniffing far too much glue recently. His Millenarian rantings sound increasingly unhinged.


  18. #67
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    Default Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    And it was about immigration mainly because a compliant media has for many years peddled the trope that immigration is responsible for all that ails the country, and the influx of immigrants is why living standards in the U.K. have dropped.

    Which, of course, is crap.
    Yeh would agree that has had an impact. But itís only fuelled something that was already there.

    Iím from Rotherham. I have a lot of family and friends still there. I donít live there any more I live in major city centres.

    It gives me a view of both sides. Inner city immigration is fine. Thereís loads of jobs and you get great food. Happy days.

    In places like Rotherham, of which there are many, they were decimated in the 80s and 90s. No jobs, no opportunities, no hope unless you move.

    That was then compounded when local government started effectively taking bungs to take in low skilled (or no skilled)migrants. So now you have a situation where not only is there more competition for the few jobs that remained, but the migration has been so much that the very nature of the towns has changed. Culturally. Cultures that can mix if times are good (like in the city I live), but not when you pit two opposing cultures against each other and make them fight for jobs, territory , welfare, A&E, medication, schools.

    I can sympathise with their plight. Theyíve been horrendously let down.

    However, concede the government has done a great job of getting people to look sown not up.

    Last edited by Carvel; 04-01-20 at 13:03.

  19. #68
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    This is a thread on Labour's response to their 1992 defeat:

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/s...274692608?s=19


  20. #69
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    Two reasons:

    1) A Labour leader in power who is a more Tory than Jeremy Corbyn is going to be able to deliver at least *some* of the left wing causes by virtue of being in power whereby a Corbyn-like figure won't be. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
    2) A Labour leader more centrist that still loses an election to the Tories is going to find it easier to get cross-party support to oppose certain government plans. Lib Dems, SNP etc could have brought down the Tory govt with Labour but none of them wanted to put Corbyn in power, even if his temporary stewardship was limited to getting a 2nd Brexit ref through only.
    But Labour is not a centrist movement.

    It would be like the EDL being supporters of islamic immigration in order to get votes. It goes completely against the principles and values on which the party stands.

    Labour are a democratic socialist movement that were brought back from what was essentially the centre-right under Blair. Membership shot up, support shot up and in 2017 the vote share shot up. It's gone down since and the leadership is changing but the principles on which the party stands now should not, nowhere near.

    Corbyn can leave a legacy behind if we manage to keep Labour on the left and that is the battle now. Your Blairites can shove it as far as I'm concerned. They might have get into power but they don't match mine or Labours values in the slightest.

    Long-Bailey probably my shout of the lot.


  21. #70
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by mouldynffc View Post
    But Labour is not a centrist movement.
    I think Labour is a centrist party even though the political landscape and its definitions has changed a few times since 1945.

    Neither Wilson, Callaghan nor Blair ever took the party properly to the Left.

    During the 50/60s the Young Turks of Crossman, Foot and Shore were respected Leftwing intellectuals totally unlike the current batch of lunatic bigots who claim to be the New Left.

    Labour trying to go Left has seen the fiascos of Michael Foot then well past his prime, Hatton and now Corbyn.

    Before Thatcher the term Working Class had a valid meaning, but now Seumas Milne is considered working class whilst manual workers are sneered at by many in Labour as Racist Scum and White Van Trash.


  22. #71
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    So he blames anyone but Labour/Corbyn for the election defeat. Irony.

    Monbiot has been sniffing far too much glue recently. His Millenarian rantings sound increasingly unhinged.
    Eh? In the video he even accepts Labour got things wrong. IMO he directs too much blame away from Corbyn but he doesn't completely exonerated him. The concerns he raises about fake news are real, and his allegation that the funding for the fake news is coming from the very wealthy also isn't unfounded.


  23. #72
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    The candidates really are naff. People like Jess Phillips or Emily Thorberry will never, ever win an election because they are so isolating and full of themselves.

    I really wish somebody like Dan Jarvis would come forward and run. He is low profile but exactly the sort of person that would win an election. As Barry said, they need to be electable, not popular to Labour members.


  24. #73
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzarecteh View Post
    .. they need to be electable, not popular to Labour members.
    There is the problem in a nutshell.


  25. #74
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzarecteh View Post
    The candidates really are naff. People like Jess Phillips or Emily Thorberry will never, ever win an election because they are so isolating and full of themselves.

    I really wish somebody like Dan Jarvis would come forward and run. He is low profile but exactly the sort of person that would win an election. As Barry said, they need to be electable, not popular to Labour members.
    What's Dan Jarvis done to get your accolades?


  26. #75
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    Default Re: Labour Leadership race

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNottingham View Post
    Eh? In the video he even accepts Labour got things wrong. IMO he directs too much blame away from Corbyn but he doesn't completely exonerated him. The concerns he raises about fake news are real, and his allegation that the funding for the fake news is coming from the very wealthy also isn't unfounded.
    Very wealthy as in Soros and Murdoch? It is not just the Right that puts out fake news or propaganda. The fact that more people appear to follow pro-Tory than pro-Labour news outlets just shows where people's tastes are in a free market. The UK is predominently a socially conservative country and it appears that Generation Z may be very conservative.


 

 

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