Welcome to the LTLF Forest Forum.
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 84

Thread: Brits, Fannies and Forest

      
  1. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    Coz there's other factors involved at other clubs which aren't present at this club.

    E.g. a surrounding core of players who know the league and can guide them, consistansy in the off field playing staff, consistansy of styles, a surrounding group of players who make settling less relevant (e.g. Watford) etc.

    We're a mess of a club who jumps from one thing to the next every 6 months. Until that's sorted the majority of imported players won't have the foundation to settle and adapt quickly enough to make a significant difference before they're off again. Odd ones will, but they'll be the exceptions, and likely cost a pretty penny ala Carva.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
    Well the point you were making was about their make-up and physicality being something which holds them back in the Champ, those examples all thrived in their first season so consistency doesn't really play into it they were in their first few months in England as for a surrounding core of players in the squad who know the English game we've got plenty haven't we?


  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many

  3. #27
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    Well the point you were making was about their make-up and physicality being something which holds them back in the Champ, those examples all thrived in their first season so consistency doesn't really play into it they were in their first few months in England as for a surrounding core of players in the squad who know the English game we've got plenty haven't we?
    It wasn't, it was about fit. Square pegs in round holes. It was one isolated example of many. Some may not like the culture, some may not like the weather, but you take a bigger risk on imports because there are more elements which aren't a given than in most British based players.

    There was consistansy at the club's they joined, well way more so than here.

    Last season every new import was experiencing the managers first pre-season here. This year again the same. Everyone involved is learning the ropes here because if how volatile we are. It's a harder bedding in period, which matters at a club which only gives 6 months to managers.

    Look at it this way instead.......

    Name our best players over the past 10 years - Reid, Antonio, Lolley, McKenna, Morgan, Earnshaw, Cohen, Britt, Lascelles etc - ALL of them in total won't have cost more than what 1 quality import cost in Carva.

    Marriot, Grosicki, Luongo, McGinn, Olivera etc All British based players we'd pick up for less than for a similar amount as Soudani.

    The foreign market shouldn't be excluded, but compared to the British one it hasn't produced enough quality for us.

    A balance is needed, but ours is still out imo.



    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


  4. #28
    The Foam Hand
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Curry House
    Posts
    23,179

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Thread title made me chuckle


  5. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    It wasn't, it was about fit. Square pegs in round holes. It was one isolated example of many. Some may not like the culture, some may not like the weather, but you take a bigger risk on imports because there are more elements which aren't a given than in most British based players.

    There was consistansy at the club's they joined, well way more so than here.

    Last season every new import was experiencing the managers first pre-season here. This year again the same. Everyone involved is learning the ropes here because if how volatile we are. It's a harder bedding in period, which matters at a club which only gives 6 months to managers.

    Look at it this way instead.......

    Name our best players over the past 10 years - Reid, Antonio, Lolley, McKenna, Morgan, Earnshaw, Cohen, Britt, Lascelles etc - ALL of them in total won't have cost more than what 1 quality import cost in Carva.

    Marriot, Grosicki, Luongo, McGinn, Olivera etc All British based players we'd pick up for less than for a similar amount as Soudani.

    The foreign market shouldn't be excluded, but compared to the British one it hasn't produced enough quality for us.

    A balance is needed, but ours is still out imo.



    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
    I don't think you do take a bigger risk, the bigger risk is filling your team with overpriced domestic players and failing FFP for it.

    You're comparing players we bought up to as much as 10 years ago to what we paid for Carvalho last summer, if you tried to buy a Reid or a Lascelles from a Championship club now you'd be looking at a similar price, remember we turned down £12m for Worrall a couple of seasons ago and got £7m for Brereton, climate of the domestic market has changed massively. Fair enough you've cited 5 who might be bargains and might contribute to a promotion push but there are also plenty who aren't now.


  6. #30
    Miserable bastard
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    , Location, Location.
    Posts
    21,400

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    It's worth noting (probably has been in other threads) - that Oly are right near the end of their pre-season preparations and their players looked ready for League action. Forest on the other hand need more minutes in the legs before we're anywhere near.


  7. #31
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    I don't think you do take a bigger risk, the bigger risk is filling your team with overpriced domestic players and failing FFP for it.

    You're comparing players we bought 10 years ago to what we paid for Carvalho, if you tried to buy a Reid or a Lascelles from a Championship club now you'd be looking at a similar price, remember we turned down £12m for Worrall a couple of seasons ago and got £7m for Brereton, climate of the domestic market has changed massively. Fair enough you've cited 5 who might be bargains and might contribute to a promotion push but there are also plenty who aren't now.
    We got Antonio for under 2m in what, 2014? Give over. Reid was free, Lascelles 'free" etc. My examples of last season show its here too like McGinn.

    Like I say, it's balance, and we've now spent several years wasting times on players like Kasami, Lica, Soudani, Ansarifard, Dias, Bouch, Gonch etc. Be nice if we realized that approach hasn't got us to the playoffs yet.


    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

    Last edited by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos; 17-07-19 at 12:13.

  8. #32
    Nottingham's dirty secret
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    918

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Bouch was quality but a yard too slow.

    Karim is class and would have been a real asset this season. Played 270 mins or so and after his initial bad miss still managed 2 assists and 2 goals in that time.


  9. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    We got Antonio for under 2m in what, 2014? Give over. Reid was free, Lascelles 'free" etc. My examples of last season show its here too like McGinn.

    Like I say, it's balance, and we've now spent several years wasting times on players like Kasami, Lica, Soudani, Ansarifard, Dias, Bouch, Gonch etc. Be nice if we realized that approach hasn't got us to the playoffs yet.


    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
    Yeah they were free because one came from the academy and the other was overweight and 30 by the time we re-signed him. If you wanted to sign them from other Championship clubs now and they had the potential that Carvalho has they'd cost a similar price.

    In the time we signed those players we also signed Clough, Tshibola, McCormack, Cummings, Henderson, Carayol, McKay, Bridcutt and probably spent more on those players and got less back than we did for the foreign ones.

    I agree there is a balance needed to be found but you don't have to have a core of Championship knowhow to succeed anymore, it can still be successful as Sheff Utd showed but Wolves and Norwich prove it isn't the only way.


  10. #34
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    Yeah they were free because one came from the academy and the other was overweight and 30 by the time we re-signed him. If you wanted to sign them from other Championship clubs now and they had the potential that Carvalho has they'd cost a similar price.

    In the time we signed those players we also signed Clough, Tshibola, McCormack, Cummings, Henderson, Carayol, McKay, Bridcutt and probably spent more on those players and got less back than we did for the foreign ones.

    I agree there is a balance needed to be found but you don't have to have a core of Championship knowhow to succeed anymore, it can still be successful as Sheff Utd showed but Wolves and Norwich prove it isn't the only way.
    So why fanny about blocking the academy lads paths with imports & loans if they're better?

    Who'd have benefited the club more Appiah with more game time last year or Dias? Appiah imo.

    Yes there's British crap your British crap list still contributed more than imported crap McKay got almost as many goals & assists as Carva.

    Like I said earlier, you don't need a core of British Championship know-how if the club meet other criteria, again examples given earlier. Criteria this club doesn't meet.

    Instead of copying other clubs we should embrace our strengths & grow from within. How Stuart Pearce, who has contacts to get us the likes of Antonio, Adams & McGuire, isn't involved I've no idea.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk


  11. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Trent End
    Posts
    15,180

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    I don't think you do take a bigger risk, the bigger risk is filling your team with overpriced domestic players and failing FFP for it.

    You're comparing players we bought up to as much as 10 years ago to what we paid for Carvalho last summer, if you tried to buy a Reid or a Lascelles from a Championship club now you'd be looking at a similar price, remember we turned down £12m for Worrall a couple of seasons ago and got £7m for Brereton, climate of the domestic market has changed massively. Fair enough you've cited 5 who might be bargains and might contribute to a promotion push but there are also plenty who aren't now.
    The average Championship player is going for £5m+ in the current market.

    It is not workable. Look around the division, there is hardly any Championship to Championship transfers unless they are free. Every club knows it's overpriced and a waste of time shopping in the Champ.


  12. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The very black holes of my mind.
    Posts
    5,216

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post

    That being said, the Championship requires stamina and perseverance over a season which is beyond what players in many leagues are used to. Bouchalakis is a good player but his muscular system simply couldn't handle high-intensity games twice a week
    In other words he couldn't do it on a cold Tuesday evening in Preston


  13. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    So why fanny about blocking the academy lads paths with imports & loans if they're better?

    Who'd have benefited the club more Appiah with more game time last year or Dias? Appiah imo.

    Yes there's British crap your British crap list still contributed more than imported crap McKay got almost as many goals & assists as Carva.

    Like I said earlier, you don't need a core of British Championship know-how if the club meet other criteria, again examples given earlier. Criteria this club doesn't meet.

    Instead of copying other clubs we should embrace our strengths & grow from within. How Stuart Pearce, who has contacts to get us the likes of Antonio, Adams & McGuire, isn't involved I've no idea.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
    The last time our core was made up of Academy lads we nearly went down. I like our academy and I like to see players like Appiah come through but you'll be the first to say we shouldn't be relying on him all season if he's burnt out by Jan/Feb.

    As for Pearce, if he's that incredible at finding talent why isn't he doing it somewhere else? Doesn't seem like he has clubs lining up for him to do it for them, has to be a reason why.


  14. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The very black holes of my mind.
    Posts
    5,216

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post

    I wouldn't want to take on Ivan Drago, but I'd back myself against a British hard nut. I'd just distract with a complicated word.

    Like "caterpillar"



  15. #39
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    The last time our core was made up of Academy lads we nearly went down. I like our academy and I like to see players like Appiah come through but you'll be the first to say we shouldn't be relying on him all season if he's burnt out by Jan/Feb.

    As for Pearce, if he's that incredible at finding talent why isn't he doing it somewhere else? Doesn't seem like he has clubs lining up for him to do it for them, has to be a reason why.
    Yeah, due to the shite imports like Lica and Lam

    Because he'll get paid more and gave more freedom doing other work. But he has a connection with our club, we should embrace that.

    Folk also overlook the huge profit to be made with British players. We get way more for someone like Brereton or Burke doing well. Antonio, Britt, Burke, Lascelles, Darlow, Brereton - all British, £42m worth of pure profit there.

    Now name me our 6 most profitable imports and how much we've made on them.?

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

    Last edited by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos; 17-07-19 at 14:16.

  16. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    Yeah, due to the shite imports like Lica and Lam

    Because he'll get paid more and gave more freedom doing other work. But he has a connection with our club, we should embrace that.

    Folk also overlook the huge profit to be made with British players. We get way more for someone like Brereton or Burke doing well. Antonio, Britt, Burke, Lascelles, Darlow, Brereton - all British, £42m worth of pure profit there.

    Now name me our 6 most profitable imports and how much we've made on them.?

    Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
    As well as Smith, Worrall, Osborn, Cash, Brereton who all played more games that season than Lica did.

    You've just proved my point. British players are overvalued and expensive. If we're gonna keep selling academy lads for that kind of profit then great because we aren't spending millions to sign them in the first place.


  17. #41
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    As well as Smith, Worrall, Osborn, Cash, Brereton who all played more games that season than Lica did.

    You've just proved my point. British players are overvalued and expensive. If we're gonna keep selling academy lads for that kind of profit then great because we aren't spending millions to sign them in the first place.
    No I haven't you just can't think of any imports which come close to making the club anywhere near that profit.

    Go for it, lets see you're top 6 import sales and how much they've netted us over the years. 42m pure profit is the target.

    Last edited by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos; 17-07-19 at 14:30.

  18. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Trent End
    Posts
    15,180

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    This thread has turned into the borefest we all knew it would


  19. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    No I haven't you just can't think of any imports which come close to making the club anywhere near that profit.

    Go for it, lets see you're top 6 import sales and how much they've netted us over the years.
    You absolutely have. £42m of profit for that lot is brilliant but they've also shown, with the exception of Lascelles and Antonio, that they aren't worth anything near what we sold them for.

    There aren't many because there aren't foreigners in the academy who are always gonna be pure profit, nor have we really signed many foreign players in comparison to British ones until the last few seasons. Nor do teams overvalue foreign players like they do British ones.


  20. #44
    Warp Speed Chic
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    7,872

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzarecteh View Post
    This thread has turned into the borefest we all knew it would
    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Whenever this debate comes up (three times a week, same 500 posts from the same 17 posters) I think of Majewski.



  21. #45
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    You absolutely have. £42m of profit for that lot is brilliant but they've also shown, with the exception of Lascelles and Antonio, that they aren't worth anything near what we sold them for.

    There aren't many because there aren't foreigners in the academy who are always gonna be pure profit, nor have we really signed many foreign players in comparison to British ones until the last few seasons. Nor do teams overvalue foreign players like they do British ones.
    Doesn't matter whether they are or not, it's a good investment. We're a business & that has to be part of the consideration. You are also totally ignoring that we got these players for next to nothing.

    Let's go through it(all figures are rounded roughly to save time):

    Antonio - Investment 2m - sold for 7m - Profit 5m
    Burke - Inv £0 - Sold 13m - profit - 13m
    Britt - Inv £5m - Sold 15m - profit 10m
    Lascelles & Darlow - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit £7m
    Brereton - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit 7m

    Christ, if this year we sold we'd be looking at an additional £18-20m profit for Lolley & Benny. Each year our best & most profitable players are still British, despite us swampting the squad with imported crap.

    Now lets look at what the imports have made us. ANY of these could have made us a significant profit, but they didn't coz they were a total waste of time, effort & money:

    Soudani
    Ansarifard
    Dejagah
    Tachtsidis
    Bouchalakis
    Kapino
    Lam
    Fuentes
    Perquis
    Stojković
    Licá
    Teixeira
    Dumitru
    Kasami
    Vellios

    etc. etc.

    there's not threpance to rub between them lot. Certainly nowhere near 42m.

    The benefits in buying British is glaringly obvious.

    Until this thread I had an idea, but now I've broken it down into actual figures I've never been more convinced that good British investment is the healthiest way to secure the club's future.


  22. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    Doesn't matter whether they are or not, it's a good investment. We're a business & that has to be part of the consideration. You are also totally ignoring that we got these players for next to nothing.

    Let's go through it(all figures are rounded roughly to save time):

    Antonio - Investment 2m - sold for 7m - Profit 5m
    Burke - Inv £0 - Sold 13m - profit - 13m
    Britt - Inv £5m - Sold 15m - profit 10m
    Lascelles & Darlow - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit £7m
    Brereton - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit 7m

    Christ, if this year we sold we'd be looking at an additional £18-20m profit for Lolley & Benny. Each year our best & most profitable players are still British, despite us swampting the squad with imported crap.

    Now lets look at what the imports have made us. ANY of these could have made us a significant profit, but they didn't coz they were a total waste of time, effort & money:

    Soudani
    Ansarifard
    Dejagah
    Tachtsidis
    Bouchalakis
    Kapino
    Lam
    Fuentes
    Perquis
    Stojković
    Licá
    Teixeira
    Dumitru
    Kasami
    Vellios

    etc. etc.

    there's not threpance to rub between them lot. Certainly nowhere near 42m.

    The benefits in buying British is glaringly obvious.

    Until this thread I had an idea, but now I've broken it down into actual figures I've never been more convinced that good British investment is the healthiest way to secure the club's future.
    I was never debating you on British players being overpriced though Alf, in fact that was one of my points and like I said if we can keep selling academy products for more than they're worth then great, I just don't really want us to be the team spending £7m on the next Brereton, who contributed less than Ansarifard for his club last season.

    You said foreign players are less likely to do it in this league because of a lack of experience in this league, or genetics, or because they prefer a warmer climate, I disagree with that and I think there have been plenty of examples in recent seasons that prove that as well, there are plenty who come here and make a name for themselves.

    As for investing in British players I'd probably get used to the fact it isn't going to happen as much while teams over-inflate the domestic market. There's a huge divide between what teams can spend on these players because of FFP and what teams value British players at.

    It's not that much of a big deal anyway, for all these British players we've bought over the years and all the great profit they've basically meant we've stagnated as a Championship team for 20 years. We've invested more in foreign players in recent seasons, especially since Marinakis took over and finished higher in the league season on season since then. So even if it doesn't end up working at least we're trying something different from the norm, which has been largely unsuccessful for the majority of my lifetime.


  23. #47
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    37,792

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    I was never debating you on British players being overpriced though Alf, in fact that was one of my points and like I said if we can keep selling academy products for more than they're worth then great, I just don't really want us to be the team spending £7m on the next Brereton, who contributed less than Ansarifard for his club last season.

    You said foreign players are less likely to do it in this league because of a lack of experience in this league, or genetics, or because they prefer a warmer climate, I disagree with that and I think there have been plenty of examples in recent seasons that prove that as well, there are plenty who come here and make a name for themselves.

    As for investing in British players I'd probably get used to the fact it isn't going to happen while teams over-inflate the domestic market. There's a huge divide between what teams can spend on these players because of FFP and what teams value British players at.

    It's not that much of a big deal anyway, for all these British players we've bought over the years they've basically meant we've stagnated as a Championship team for 20 years. We've invested more in foreign players in recent seasons, especially since Marinakis took over and finished higher in the league season on season since then. So even if it doesn't end up working at least we're trying something different from the norm, which has been largely unsuccessful for the majority of my lifetime.
    But we've only stagnated because we've done a half arsed job. Antonio & Britt should have been backe with more signings, Reid should have seen Fawaz buy Austin & Leadbitter etc.

    But fair enough mate, i think we've both said our peice. Overall I've nothing against imports, I just think that the balance is too lobsided in their favour currently.

    And fuck off to any twat stupid enough to come to this thread & expect to find anything other than a debate on which the thread is all about.


  24. #48
    Left Winger
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Lufthansa Business Lounge
    Posts
    78,132

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    But we've only stagnated because we've done a half arsed job. Antonio & Britt should have been backe with more signings, Reid should have seen Fawaz buy Austin & Leadbitter etc.

    But fair enough mate, i think we've both said our peice. Overall I've nothing against imports, I just think that the balance is too lobsided in their favour currently.

    And fuck off to any twat stupid enough to come to this thread & expect to find anything other than a debate on which the thread is all about.
    Problem is old cucumber, Forest have well made a spectacular profit on transfers of above £40m, but virtually every penny of that has been spunked on the wages of bang-average footballers who’ve bled the Club dry, to the extent that every season it still haemorrhages cash (bar some creative accounting...)

    That’s the real, unsustainable problem at this level and it’s directly caused by the massive wealth-gap to the division above, which means every club owner will gamble on promotion (and that cascades down the divisions too).

    Anyway, in the sprit of the thread, here’s a picture of a tart leaning on a bar:



    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    — Joe Strummer

  25. #49
    Cato Road SW4
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Dangerously close to Infernos
    Posts
    23,746

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest




  26. #50
    Miserable bastard
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    , Location, Location.
    Posts
    21,400

    Default Re: Brits, Fannies and Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    The last time our core was made up of Academy lads we nearly went down.
    Nearly went up under Hart though.

    The trick is knowing which ones are good enough to rely on.


 

 

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •