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  • Win

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Thread: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

      
  1. #851
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    A 442 or 4411 with Carva as the 10 and Grabban up top would immediately be a better formation.
    Isn't that effectively what Karanka was playing?


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  3. #852
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    Isn't that effectively what Karanka was playing?
    AK played a 4231 or 4141.


  4. #853
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    AK played a 4231 or 4141.
    But if one of the 'front two' drops into midfield, you still effectively have 4 defenders, 5 midfielders and a striker. There's very little difference.


  5. #854
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by Player-12 View Post
    I go further than that. I don’t think any formations exist in football as they used to anymore.

    The thinking has changed from “where can I put this player to make use of his best attributes” to “Let’s make use of his best attributes, and get him doing what the team needs. Wherever he falls on an average heat map after that doesn’t really matter.”



    I think the change has been noticed too with the new more modern position titles and crazy formations a way of trying to fit this new thinking into an old system.



    It is why in this position map from a “4-2-3-1” The “right winger” number 7 is further forward and more central than the “striker” number 14.

    https://i.imgur.com/t4fJ8sQ.png?1



    Or why in this “Wide 4-3-3” Both fullbacks are higher than a midfielder, the right winger is more advanced than the striker, and neither winger is anywhere near the wing.

    https://i.imgur.com/gmUhFzV.png?1



    It means that If a player is good at it and it is something that the team needs then he may press Centre backs like a “10”. Sit wide in build up like a “7” move centrally in attack like an “8” and drop into a “2” for a back 5.



    With regards to Forest I think this means that we shouldn’t judge anything based on our “Skysports formation map”. No “formation” is impossible with our players or any less effective on the face of it than any other, because it dosnt actually give any indication of how we are going to play or what the players will be doing.

    You can no longer read “4-4-2” and know how the team will play or how players will act.
    If you look at the site who scored and the position heat maps from karanka's 4231 they're very similar


  6. #855
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by bob bobson View Post
    If you look at the site who scored and the position heat maps from karanka's 4231 they're very similar
    So perhaps Karanka liked to play close to the "template" with the instructions he gave to his players.

    However, what we have seen from Karanka would be no help in determining what we would see when Klopp lines up his liverpool side in a 4-2-3-1.

    Nor would it be any help if Klopp came to the City Ground and lined our side up in a 4-2-3-1.

    And if the numbers don’t hold any relation to where or how players will play between managers, teams and systems then they don’t really mean anything.

    The key is getting our best players out on the field doing things they’re good at. Regardless of how that shapes up on the heat map. For me one of those key players is Carvalho. He needs to be on the field. In any formation that the heat map will ultimately show.

    Last edited by Player-12; 23-01-19 at 16:12.

  7. #856
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    I think you're all coming round to my point that the numbers are irrelevant, it's the fluidity of the players on the field that counts.


  8. #857
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by valspoodle View Post
    I think you're all coming round to my point that the numbers are irrelevant, it's the fluidity of the players on the field that counts.
    No disrespect, but we've had managers fall down with this theory before. I've seen some shit Forest reams where I couldn't decifer the formation for love nor money.

    Clubs can spend days working on "team shape" in training, it's more than important. We've all seen the implications when players get dragged out of position.


  9. #858
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    You say team shape, I say game plan which is subtly different and requires players to be more versatile and more mobile. Team shape is now old hat unless you have two banks of four (where have I heard that before?) lined up against Nott'm Forest who struggle to break it down.


  10. #859
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City



    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    — Joe Strummer

  11. #860
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post
    Did he post that on this forum?


  12. #861
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    ][/QU

    Facing the wrath of everyone. That quote is 19 years old and was said years after Brian retired.

    The game has changed. Living on an old mantra can hold you back. Clearly tactics are extremely important to the modern game, as are players.

    And while nobody on here can win at dominoes I sincerely hope that any Forest manager respects that the game has moved on since that quote.


  13. #862
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Quote Originally Posted by Player-12 View Post
    ][/QU

    Facing the wrath of everyone. That quote is 19 years old and was said years after Brian retired.

    The game has changed. Living on an old mantra can hold you back. Clearly tactics are extremely important to the modern game, as are players.

    And while nobody on here can win at dominoes I sincerely hope that any Forest manager respects that the game has moved on since that quote.
    I agree, and it’s important to remember that BC often said things to get a reaction.

    Clearly he was interested in the tactical side of the game and mastered it to good effect early on in his career at both Derby and Forest - the use of a sweeper system at the former and the emphasis on a more possession based game in Europe at the latter. The UEFA website has a good piece on BC’s tactics in Europe.

    "Outside the family life, there is nothing better than winning the European Cups." Brian Clough

  14. #863
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    Anyone who has watched the footage of the 1980 European Cup Final will be well aware how tactically astute Mr. Clough was.

    There, his deployment of Garry Birtles as a lone forward in an (at that time) almost unheard of 4-5-1 formation completely out-thought opposite number Branko Zebec.


  15. #864
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    Default Re: Matchday 28: Martin O‘Neill‘s Nottingham Forest vs Bristol City

    I reckon Sir Brian was having a rare moment of modesty and trying to credit the players with some respect.


 

 

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