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Thread: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

      
  1. #1
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
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    Default Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    We all want to see Forest play stunning football I've no doubt, but reality is often a fickle mistress and the road to perfection is often a bumpy one.

    Now I was watching some old vids of the Clark & Basset era the other day, and I was surprised how many route 1 or set peice goals we scored. And according to the more ancient fans, Clough himself didn't get us playing that good a stuff until he got us out of this league. Many a game was supposidly rough as a cats rizzer until we were out of Division 2.

    So, whilst I'm fully on board with "playing the Forest way", I think it's a gradual process, and can find the joy in getting points in a bit of a rougher manner for the time being.

    What surprises me is how many folk think this style of football can't be successful at this level. Personally I think you've more chance of succeeding on a lesser budget at this level via hoofthrow, as physical/dynamic players like Geddy in his prime don't cost as much as talented ones such as Carva.

    So what do you rek? Can we succeed with hoofthrow? Is it too much for you to endure?


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I don't mind a long pass, something with direction or purpose, aimless hoofing is no way forward and won't get you out the league.

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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Conceding possession all game then hoofing it forward and hoping Grabban can force a mistake from an opposition defender will get tedious very fast.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    What's Heathrow got to do with it.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    It can be successful but it's not my idea of a good watch and I like to watch football to be entertained, usually with the added bonus of it being played by the team I support and I'm not saying I only like tiki-taka or whatever it's called now, direct football can be entertaining (see Leicester winning the title) but at the moment we aren't playing direct football we're playing hoofball, smash it at Grabban and hope.

    Ravi (I think) made a good point the other day, if it wasn't a club legend serving it up a lot more people would be pissed off with it now. Also when MON was hired and people expressed concern about his style of football, it was brushed off with the excuse of "he made the most of what he had at Ireland. It'll be different here." So far it isn't.

    I've not done it but I'm pretty sure if you go back to last season and read a matchday thread from when we played Cardiff you'll find a lot of people saying they wouldn't pay to watch Forest play the way Cardiff do, (in some cases regardless of success).


  7. #6
    Billy Davies long lost lovechild.
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    It can be successful but it's not my idea of a good watch and I like to watch football to be entertained, usually with the added bonus of it being played by the team I support and I'm not saying I only like tiki-taka or whatever it's called now, direct football can be entertaining (see Leicester winning the title) but at the moment we aren't playing direct football we're playing hoofball, smash it at Grabban and hope.

    Ravi (I think) made a good point the other day, if it wasn't a club legend serving it up a lot more people would be pissed off with it now. Also when MON was hired and people expressed concern about his style of football, it was brushed off with the excuse of "he made the most of what he had at Ireland. It'll be different here." So far it isn't.

    I've not done it but I'm pretty sure if you go back to last season and read a matchday thread from when we played Cardiff you'll find a lot of people saying they wouldn't pay to watch Forest play the way Cardiff do, (in some cases regardless of success).
    Some good points Hef P.

    Like you say - so far - there's not much difference. So far. I think the difference will come when we've more dynamic, condifent players leading from the front and a settled defence for them to push on from. We seem to have a squad comprised of players which have good attributes but weak areas (e.g. Watson has leadership & experience, but is a plodder), whereas I think MON will look for more rounded players in the summer, which will in turn allow for better football.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I think sometimes even in the glory years that Clough and Taylor didn’t always play champagne football. Liverpool games were usually grind out results and just shut them out. Both European finals weren’t epics either.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I'm the last person who can comment on the "Forest way", I believe football evolves and one should not necessarily cling to the past, and I believe that things in life are rarely so black and white, hoofthrow vs. the Forest way.

    What I have seen time and again, however, is that a team can only really progress when it tries to play football. Any team can, once every few matches, leave possession to the opponent, organize its defensive lines, and rely on a counter-attack, a long ball, or just plain luck. But I have never seen a team really progress without playing football.

    Playing football does not necessarily mean 70% possession, patient passing, and constant triangles. Direct football can be real football: a team that strives to be solid defensively, and then crush the opponent in counter-attack with a limited number of passes can also be a thing of beauty. But relying just on passive defensive formation, strength, speed and individual attacking effort rarely is. And my point is not that this is not entertaining, it's that this cannot lead a team to the next level. It is not ambitious enough.


  10. #9
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    I'm the last person who can comment on the "Forest way", I believe football evolves and one should not necessarily cling to the past, and I believe that things in life are rarely so black and white, hoofthrow vs. the Forest way.

    What I have seen time and again, however, is that a team can only really progress when it tries to play football. Any team can, once every few matches, leave possession to the opponent, organize its defensive lines, and rely on a counter-attack, a long ball, or just plain luck. But I have never seen a team really progress without playing football.

    Playing football does not necessarily mean 70% possession, patient passing, and constant triangles. Direct football can be real football: a team that strives to be solid defensively, and then crush the opponent in counter-attack with a limited number of passes can also be a thing of beauty. But relying just on passive defensive formation, strength, speed and individual attacking effort rarely is. And my point is not that this is not entertaining, it's that this cannot lead a team to the next level. It is not ambitious enough.
    See for me it will eveolve when we've a few more of the right players here, and the staff have had more time with the squad.

    In fact if anything I think it's our most ambitious move yet, as we finally seem to be playing to win points & play the odds, instead of just trying to be the better team. Half the art of this league is winning poorly. Hell Leeds have cheated their way to half their points this season, and they sit top of the shop.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I've watched teams come to our place year after year & teach us a lesson in the middle of the park. Different managers, different players, rinse & repeat. Every side seems to have more cohesion & snap.

    I like the system, I like not having to watch us dwell on the ball in our own half trying to plot a seemingly non existent path through the opposition. We've got a class striker leading the line, we've got players in midfield prepared to hunt for the ball & press high. It aint the easiest on the eye, but getting the ball up as quick as possible & keeping it there is as good a plan as any given our shortfalls of recent seasons.

    Fair play to MON, for instilling what looks like a cost effective, viable plan to hit the ground running. I didnt think he'd have it, but he has.

    Fully on board, with the caveat that hopes it can be tweaked to cope with the less adventurous teams.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I think there's a level of pragmatism required, from the supporters through the players to the owners. We'd always like to see the team play some decent football, but there are times to go direct, to park the bus, to use a long throw. It's when it crosses over to Cotterball that it becomes more unwatchable (but then Cotterball beat Leeds 7-3). Watch some of the goals under Frank Clark and they can be loosely described as boot it up to Stan and let him run with it. Is that long ball or it is playing to strengths? How many times have you sat at the WFCG watching our defenders pass it around and heard a shout of 'Gerrit Forwards!'?

    Let's not forget that if our players could pass the ball around like Barcelona and Manchester City, they wouldn't be playing in a mid-table second division side.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    It only matters to people if they want to use it as an excuse to moan about the manager.

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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    What I have seen time and again, however, is that a team can only really progress when it tries to play football.
    The first goal against West Brom is testament to the fact we're not just playing hoofball here. We've got flair players in advanced areas, we need the ball up there as long as possible for them to capitalise. Passing through midfield has been an achilles heel to the detriment of players like Grabban, Lolley & Carvalho if we want to play him.


  15. #14
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    Default Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by siforest65 View Post
    I think sometimes even in the glory years that Clough and Taylor didn’t always play champagne football. Liverpool games were usually grind out results and just shut them out. Both European finals weren’t epics either.
    Said it many times before, the 1980 Final was a decidedly pragmatic performance, Mr. Clough deploying Forest in a Defensive 4-5-1 formation with Garry Birtles as the lone forward, specifically to counter a Hamburg side who, player for player, were perhaps better than our men.

    Forest though, had John Robertson, and also Larry Lloyd and Kenneth Burns, the latter taking particular relish in his role at stopping Hamburg‘s primary attacking outlet, Kevin Keegan.

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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I'd just rather watch us play in the opposition half than ours.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    I'd just rather watch us play in the opposition half than ours.
    Play being the key verb.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    Play being the key verb.
    Granted its tenuous, but Id appreciated the pragmatic side of Aks game so I'd feel mildly hypocritical not appreciate what MONs doing higher up the pitch.

    We havent played a deal of consistnet football for so long, I'm not sure I know what I'm missing.


  19. #18
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    I remember when the long throw-in was started by Ian Hutchinson of Chelsea. Everyone at school was trying to do it.


  20. #19
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    I'm the last person who can comment on the "Forest way", I believe football evolves and one should not necessarily cling to the past, and I believe that things in life are rarely so black and white, hoofthrow vs. the Forest way.
    The "Forest Way" is essentially a myth GBG.

    It emanates from the early fifties when Billy Walker adopted the same push-and-run tactics utilised by the-then Spurs manager, Arthur Rowe, but it is a title that has since been lazily thrown around by people over the decades to make pointless claims and comparisons.

    Because the game was rapidly changing in terms approach and formations, Walker's way of playing wasn't seen under Andy Beattie, Johnny Carey, Matt Gillies, Dave Mackay or Allan Brown, the managers who immediately followed him. As Alf and others have rightly commented, it then took the best part of a couple of seasons for Cloughie to carefully hone his possession-based, counter-attacking style, which bore little, if any, resemblance to the football we played under Walker over twenty years earlier.

    The totally contrasting mish-mash of styles we've played to varying degrees of success and (mainly) failure since then has been self-evident.

    Last edited by Otis Redd'un; 15-02-19 at 12:42.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    It's also extremely cringy when clubs put statements out saying they've got a new manager who will play the "____ way", no club deserves to have a style of football attributed to them. The style comes with the manager, you can look for and find head coaches who are similar and don't change the style massively but there's always gonna be differences regardless of how subtle. It's not like Man City are now playing the "City way", they're playing Pep Guardiola style football same with Leeds and Bielsa.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-ugginblowupyourbakery View Post
    Some good points Hef P.

    Like you say - so far - there's not much difference. So far. I think the difference will come when we've more dynamic, condifent players leading from the front and a settled defence for them to push on from. We seem to have a squad comprised of players which have good attributes but weak areas (e.g. Watson has leadership & experience, but is a plodder), whereas I think MON will look for more rounded players in the summer, which will in turn allow for better football.
    Thing is why would the style get any better? Our ability to play MON-ball might get better if we buy players better suited to it but he isn't gonna buy players that suddenly transform us into a footballing side is he? e.g. I don't see any scenario where selling Carvalho and replacing him with a couple of midfielders who are a stone or two heavier and a few inches taller but can't pass a football as well will make us a better footballing side.


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Hoofball is shite to watch but there's just something about hoofthrow that turns me on.


  24. #23
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Heffing Psycho! View Post
    Thing is why would the style get any better? Our ability to play MON-ball might get better if we buy players better suited to it but he isn't gonna buy players that suddenly transform us into a footballing side is he? e.g. I don't see any scenario where selling Carvalho and replacing him with a couple of midfielders who are a stone or two heavier and a few inches taller but can't pass a football as well will make us a better footballing side.
    I think some genuine quality width and more dynamic players throughout will see us win more of the ball, and create more too. Hoof is just the initial stage, and with the right players the stages after that will be where you see us pressure, create & score.


  25. #24
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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    We're the dirtiest team in the league and now we play hoof ball and employ a long throw?


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    Default Re: Hoofthrow & "The Forest Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-ugginblowupyourbakery View Post
    I think some genuine quality width and more dynamic players throughout will see us win more of the ball, and create more too. Hoof is just the initial stage, and with the right players the stages after that will be where you see us pressure, create & score.
    I'll believe it when I see it.


 

 

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