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Thread: Joćo Carvalho

      
  1. #5376
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    Just watching some of the start of the 16/17 season where Ollie Burke was ripping full-backs to shreds, and dreaming at the notion of Carvalho dropping into a pocket of space, turning out and just rolling the ball into space behind a full-back again and again for Burke to run onto. Would be devastating.

    If WBA go up and we don't, that's a loan move i'd be desperate to make.

    He'd fit into Lamouchi's style of play brilliantly too away from home. Yet has the pace and power to break teams down laterally swell.
    I'd like to see a player similar in style to 16/17 Oliver Burke at the club, it would be a real game changer.

    A no from me for the Oliver Burke of today though, lost his way massively since leaving Forest and we aren't in a position financially where we can afford to take such a gamble (even on loan, his wages would be significant I'd imagine).


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  3. #5377

    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    I'd like to see a player similar in style to 16/17 Oliver Burke at the club, it would be a real game changer.

    A no from me for the Oliver Burke of today though, lost his way massively since leaving Forest and we aren't in a position financially where we can afford to take such a gamble (even on loan, his wages would be significant I'd imagine).
    He definitely has lost his way a bit. But he's only just turned 23.

    Despite that, he's still played in the Bundesliga, Prem, Europa League, La Liga and internationally.

    His ability is still there. I'm not sure Spanish football is quite right for his bulldozing style. He's definitely suited to the English game.

    I remember when he got a few games in the Prem for WBA and he was having moments (against Man Utd I remember one good example) where he was flying down the right and beating his man again and again. Problem for him is expectation has been through the roof.

    I have full confidence if he was here, particularly under Lamouchi, that he'd terrorise full-backs again.

    I think if we didn't know much about him, saw his highlight reel on YT and his pedigree, coming from a team in La Liga with the prospect of loan. People would be licking their lips at the prospect of Sabri getting his hands on him in our counter-attacking style.


  4. #5378
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by valspoodle View Post
    Carvalho will be one of those players who fail at one club because he doesn't play the type of game favoured by particular managers, but will go to another club and be a great success.

    Just our luck, again.
    See James Rodriguez, Phillipe Coutinho, Mesut Ozil etc

    Some of the Worlds best in terms of pure talent but need to play to a specific system to reap the rewards.


  5. #5379
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Liaminho View Post
    See James Rodriguez, Phillipe Coutinho, Mesut Ozil etc

    Some of the Worlds best in terms of pure talent but need to play to a specific system to reap the rewards.
    You can add Mario Götze to that list.

    He’s being bombed out of Dortmund at the end of this season, because he doesn’t „fit“ Lucien Favre‘s 3-4-3 system.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

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  6. #5380
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    He definitely has lost his way a bit. But he's only just turned 23.

    Despite that, he's still played in the Bundesliga, Prem, Europa League, La Liga and internationally.

    His ability is still there. I'm not sure Spanish football is quite right for his bulldozing style. He's definitely suited to the English game.

    I remember when he got a few games in the Prem for WBA and he was having moments (against Man Utd I remember one good example) where he was flying down the right and beating his man again and again. Problem for him is expectation has been through the roof.

    I have full confidence if he was here, particularly under Lamouchi, that he'd terrorise full-backs again.

    I think if we didn't know much about him, saw his highlight reel on YT and his pedigree, coming from a team in La Liga with the prospect of loan. People would be licking their lips at the prospect of Sabri getting his hands on him in our counter-attacking style.
    If it was just a few months of bad or indifferent form at one or two clubs I'd agree with you. But we are talking about a player who has done very little at at multiple clubs for almost 4 years now.

    Some people seem to think everything would click into place for him if he came back here (and it would be fantastic if it did), but I really don't see it. Generally, a player who has failed to impress over such a long period of time doesn't bounce back like that.

    As for the last bit, I think the opposite; the only reason people want him back is because he did well for us a few years ago. If he had never played for us and people looked at his record over the last 4 years, most people on here would dismiss him as crap IMO.

    Personally I reckon he'll drop down the leagues once his WBA contract expires before fading into obscurity, sadly.


  7. #5381
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Only way I'd take Burke is on a free... I dont think hes worth any more at this point

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  8. #5382

    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    If it was just a few months of bad or indifferent form at one or two clubs I'd agree with you. But we are talking about a player who has done very little at at multiple clubs for almost 4 years now.

    Some people seem to think everything would click into place for him if he came back here (and it would be fantastic if it did), but I really don't see it. Generally, a player who has failed to impress over such a long period of time doesn't bounce back like that.

    As for the last bit, I think the opposite; the only reason people want him back is because he did well for us a few years ago. If he had never played for us and people looked at his record over the last 4 years, most people on here would dismiss him as crap IMO.

    Personally I reckon he'll drop down the leagues once his WBA contract expires before fading into obscurity, sadly.
    Alaves coach is happy with him and they're looking to buy him at the end of the loan. Spurs were apparently looking at him too.

    Think you're off on this one.


  9. #5383
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    Alaves coach is happy with him and they're looking to buy him at the end of the loan. Spurs were apparently looking at him too.

    Think you're off on this one.
    The last 4 years of his career say otherwise, he's not managed to nail down a regular starting spot at any club since Forest (Alaves included, where has been often used as a substitute). None of the managers at any of the clubs he has been at have managed to get a tune out of him, I don't think that will change at his next club. He's already starting to become a bit of a journeyman.

    He's in the same boat as the likes of Zach Clough and Ben Brereton really; a player who has badly lost their way sincea bad move after making a promising start to their career and has never looked the same since.

    If he would be cheap, there might be a case for taking a chance on him. But given his wages at WBA (of which they would expect us to cover a significant amount) and factor in the fact that there will probably be a chunky loan fee involved (WBA will want to recoup some money for him) it would be an expensive gamble for a club like us. With FFP and the financial impact of the pandemic in mind, we are in no such position to make such a gamble.


  10. #5384

    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    The last 4 years of his career say otherwise, he's not managed to nail down a regular starting spot at any club since Forest (Alaves included, where has been often used as a substitute). None of the managers at any of the clubs he has been at have managed to get a tune out of him, I don't think that will change at his next club. He's already starting to become a bit of a journeyman.

    He's in the same boat as the likes of Zach Clough and Ben Brereton really; a player who has badly lost their way sincea bad move after making a promising start to their career and has never looked the same since.

    If he would be cheap, there might be a case for taking a chance on him. But given his wages at WBA (of which they would expect us to cover a significant amount) and factor in the fact that there will probably be a chunky loan fee involved (WBA will want to recoup some money for him) it would be an expensive gamble for a club like us. With FFP and the financial impact of the pandemic in mind, we are in no such position to make such a gamble.
    Same boat as Clough and Brereton?

    He's playing football in La Liga for a manager this week who praised him and wants to sign him.

    I think people are judging him based on the expectation he was going to be on the world stage, but hasn't got to that level.

    He's played 25 times this season. Hardly cast aside like you seem to be making out.

    Last season he played for Celtic, winning the league and played in the Europa League

    Season prior to that he played 15 times in the Prem

    Season prior to that 25 times in the Bundesliga

    He isn't living up to his promise, 100%. But he's clearly still well thought of and getting playing time in top domestic leagues.


  11. #5385
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    Same boat as Clough and Brereton?

    He's playing football in La Liga for a manager this week who praised him and wants to sign him.

    I think people are judging him based on the expectation he was going to be on the world stage, but hasn't got to that level.

    He's played 25 times this season. Hardly cast aside like you seem to be making out.

    Last season he played for Celtic, winning the league and played in the Europa League

    Season prior to that he played 15 times in the Prem

    Season prior to that 25 times in the Bundesliga

    He isn't living up to his promise, 100%. But he's clearly still well thought of and getting playing time in top domestic leagues.
    Gil Dias played in Ligue 1 and Serie A before coming to Forest, and is currently plying his trade in La Liga. Claude Davis made almost 50 Premier League appearances across 2 consecutive seasons. Just because someone happens be at a club in a decent league, it doesn't mean that they are good or are currently doing well.

    Oliver Burke has played at numerous clubs (under some good managers) over the last 4 years and has failed to nail down a spot in the starting XI at any of them. I don't see how that can be spun as being anything other than a failure IMO, nor does it really provide any indication that he might rediscover his form from 4 years ago any time soon.

    I remember having similar debates about Burke about a year ago, I have a feeling I'll be doing the same in 12 months time as well.

    Last edited by Ashley; 25-05-20 at 12:45.

  12. #5386

    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Gil Dias played in Ligue 1 and Serie A before coming to Forest, and is currently plying his trade in La Liga. Claude Davis made almost 50 Premier League appearances across 2 consecutive seasons. Just because someone happens be at a club in a decent league, it doesn't mean that they are good or are currently doing well.

    Oliver Burke has played at numerous clubs (under some good managers) over the last 4 years and has failed to nail down a spot in the starting XI at any of them. I don't see how that can be spun as being anything other than a failure IMO, nor does it really provide any indication that he might rediscover his form from 4 years ago any time soon.

    I remember having similar debates about Burke about a year ago, I have a feeling I'll be doing the same in 12 months time as well.
    Dias does have something to be fair, so I can see why he keeps getting opportunities.

    I think you're getting caught up in a debate that's not happening though. No-one has disputed he has not achieved his potential. But it still exists and if you type his name into YT and watch some of his stuff from Celtic, especially a game against Rangers where he runs them ragged, you'll see he's not turned to shit. That ability and potential is still there.

    Come back to where it all started and he was comfortable could be the key to bringing it back out.

    It's not just about the fantasy of it, it's seeing what his talents are, pace, strength and direct running, and seeing how suited they'd be to a Sabri team. Look at the goals we've scored on the break. Add someone with those ingredients and the team suddenly becomes so much more dangerous.

    I think he's made some poor career moves imo. But I don't think he's anything like Zac Clough for instance...

    Underacheving? Yes. Lots of talent there? Yes.


  13. #5387
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Lots of players have ability and potential, but what separates the wheat from the chaff is the ability to produce on a regular basis. Multiple clubs and managers over the years evidently don't feel that Burke was able to do that often enough to be relied upon as a starting XI player.

    Of course he hasn't reached the lows of Brereton and Zach Clough yet, but it's still a comparison worth making as all three are players who once showed a lot of potential at one point but haven't done well for a long time following some poor career moves.

    As for Forest, it is a very different club now to what it was when Burke last played here, besides the geography it wouldn't really be that familiar an environment to him IMO. I don't think he's any more or less likely to be a success here than any other Championship club personally.

    If he was available at a reasonable price and wages, I'd agree that he'd be worth a shot. But the money that would likely be required to bring him here (even on loan) is too much for a player with a recent track record like his IMO.

    Last edited by Ashley; 26-05-20 at 00:05.

  14. #5388
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    Such a talent.

    Get willing runners beyond him and he will produce. Both our wingers like to receive the ball short and then run at people with it, so he's only ever got Grabban to try and look for, who's often got a couple of defenders occupying him. In home games, we need to look to play on the front foot more, and that includes getting Carvalho on the ball, and making sure 2/3 people are running beyond him and in behind, and he'll cause mayhem.
    Yet we've camped in the opposition half on so many occasions & got precisely nowhere with Carvalho tasked with pulling the strings. Truth is, precious little space in behind at the City Ground because teams have worked out we havent the creative movement or execution to get the job done.

    Pound for pound, sitting on the counter has proved the best way with what Lamouchi has. I certainly wouldn't advocate change centred around a player who just doesn't do it consistently & can't cope with being knocked about.

    Although he's done some nice stuff in glimpses, Carvalho must be one of the most overrated players we've had here.


  15. #5389
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    Yet we've camped in the opposition half on so many occasions & got precisely nowhere with Carvalho tasked with pulling the strings. Truth is, precious little space in behind at the City Ground because teams have worked out we havent the creative movement or execution to get the job done.

    Pound for pound, sitting on the counter has proved the best way with what Lamouchi has. I certainly wouldn't advocate change centred around a player who just doesn't do it consistently & can't cope with being knocked about.

    Although he's done some nice stuff in glimpses, Carvalho must be one of the most overrated players we've had here.
    Carvalho may well turn out to be no good but I can sympathise with what he has faced, particularly in the games at home.

    Our movement in the final third in far too many games at home has been near on non existent; its not so much that Carvalho has not been pulling the strings; he has had no strings to pull.

    Whoever has been tasked with playing off of Grabban, and getting into the space that he creates, has, in the main, failed to do so; and I have to include Joe Lolley in that.

    Without that movement, our build up play is reduced to pedestrian pace and we become so easy to defend against.


  16. #5390

    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Gonad View Post
    Carvalho may well turn out to be no good but I can sympathise with what he has faced, particularly in the games at home.

    Our movement in the final third in far too many games at home has been near on non existent; its not so much that Carvalho has not been pulling the strings; he has had no strings to pull.

    Whoever has been tasked with playing off of Grabban, and getting into the space that he creates, has, in the main, failed to do so; and I have to include Joe Lolley in that.

    Without that movement, our build up play is reduced to pedestrian pace and we become so easy to defend against.
    I whole heartedly concur.

    Both Ameobi and Lolley (our first choice wingers through the season) both drop very short to collect the ball and travel with it. They rarely, if ever, make a run off the ball in behind.

    Carvalho isn't perfect. He is easily manoeuvred off the ball in tight spaces, he does seem to stop showing so much once he's failed a few times and he needs to be willing to drop deeper to give and go to move us up the pitch. But he absolutely is left stranded a lot when he plays, because his best attribute, is clever simplicity. Drop into space, take the ball on the half turn, work it out to the other flank in behind a full-back. He's so good at it, and it does look easy, but it's one of those things that looks a lot easier than it is, to keep so calm and make the pass between players on the floor forwards.

    But he doesn't get that run this season.

    I do respect it's largely because of our style. But he obviously won't succeed when he's chucked in to be a part of the same style, because he doesn't have the movement of others to use. Like I said above, he could definitely work harder to come deeper to get on the ball and try and work it shorter, and work on his own strength to be able to hold players off with his back to goal if he receives the ball in tight spaces and gets crowded.

    But that plan isn't particularly working at home anyway. In my opinion we'd be better starting him, and encouraging the two wide players to move off the ball, make runs in behind, likewise get the movement from Grabban, and not only will he have more joy, he might get a bit of space himself too.


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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    You can add Mario Götze to that list.

    He’s being bombed out of Dortmund at the end of this season, because he doesn’t „fit“ Lucien Favre‘s 3-4-3 system.
    Surely it’s because they have 4 or 5 better players?

    Like some of the other players mentioned, he suffers because he doesn’t really graft and get stuck in consistently.


  18. #5392
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by adam09 View Post
    Surely it’s because they have 4 or 5 better players?

    Like some of the other players mentioned, he suffers because he doesn’t really graft and get stuck in consistently.
    Not really; he’s an attacking #10, and that just doesn’t fit into a 3-4-3 as Favre plays it, with two wing-forwards shadowing Erling Haaland, and the wide players flanking two sitting Midfield players, there just isn’t room for him.


  19. #5393
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Yeah, he’s not better than Hazard or Brandt. Even if they played with a “number 10”, those two would be ahead of him.


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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    I whole heartedly concur.

    Both Ameobi and Lolley (our first choice wingers through the season) both drop very short to collect the ball and travel with it. They rarely, if ever, make a run off the ball in behind.

    Carvalho isn't perfect. He is easily manoeuvred off the ball in tight spaces, he does seem to stop showing so much once he's failed a few times and he needs to be willing to drop deeper to give and go to move us up the pitch. But he absolutely is left stranded a lot when he plays, because his best attribute, is clever simplicity. Drop into space, take the ball on the half turn, work it out to the other flank in behind a full-back. He's so good at it, and it does look easy, but it's one of those things that looks a lot easier than it is, to keep so calm and make the pass between players on the floor forwards.

    But he doesn't get that run this season.

    I do respect it's largely because of our style. But he obviously won't succeed when he's chucked in to be a part of the same style, because he doesn't have the movement of others to use. Like I said above, he could definitely work harder to come deeper to get on the ball and try and work it shorter, and work on his own strength to be able to hold players off with his back to goal if he receives the ball in tight spaces and gets crowded.

    But that plan isn't particularly working at home anyway. In my opinion we'd be better starting him, and encouraging the two wide players to move off the ball, make runs in behind, likewise get the movement from Grabban, and not only will he have more joy, he might get a bit of space himself too.
    Theres no space in behind at home, furthermore Lolley & Ameobi don't have the pace to make runs. Their clear & obvious strengths are running at players & we get more defensive rigidity with them collecting from deep.

    With Lamouchi highly unlikely to compromise our foundations, it all boils down to which central midfielders can best plot a passage up field & keep us tight. Silva is a far more robust option, he's got equally as good a passing range as Carvalho & he can buy us more time on the ball.

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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    As much as I used to think Watson was the weak link, he improved no end under Sir Sabri as the season went on. Hopefully the break will help him finish as strong as he was getting.


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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    At least this time off will mean his Alfreton injury should be mended proper.


  23. #5397
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Sabri has us set up in a very specific way:

    - Central midfield is very tight, and hard to break down, and generally don't support in the final third.
    - Final third play is usually overlapping full backs or direct counter from the winger.

    I think Burke would suit our system. He'd be a little bit like Ameobi - strong, can hold it up, can take it round a player, has a bit of pace.

    The difficulty is that his inclusion would mean Lolley would be out of the side, as the overlapping full back requirement would move over to the left side, and then that would mean Lolley wouldn't be correct in front of the full back because he's left footed.

    It'd also mean losing the main benefits of Cash for right back, as you wouldn't want both right winger and right back very high up the pitch. We'd be really exposed.

    If we're prepared to sell Cash and Lolley if there's significant interest in them - for sake of argument say £30m, then bringing in Burke and a more conservative full back for a combined £10m say would be a sensible move. We could then use the left over money to buy a Lolley like left winger to cut inside and then you've got £10m odd left over and Ameobi relegated to a bench option, which all things considered is probably where you want him, rather than relying on him week in week out.

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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    And we might even want to consider elevating Mighten to first choice left wing in such a scenario, rather than spending £10m on someone.


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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-aSemedoBlueJeans&Chinos View Post
    At least this time off will mean his Alfreton injury should be mended proper.
    Also good for Yates and Darikwa as they both effectively missed the pre-season too. Hopefully we'll see more of all three when the season resumes.


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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Also good for Yates and Darikwa as they both effectively missed the pre-season too. Hopefully we'll see more of all three when the season resumes.
    I wish Darikwa well but don't think many will be looking forward to seeing him back in first team.


 

 

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