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Thread: Joćo Carvalho

      
  1. #4876
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkshire Red View Post
    Neither are being played as a number ten, are they? If Silva is being played as a number ten then it's not working because he doesn't deliver anything from open play, which surely is the remit of a number ten?
    I agree, that's why I said 'if hes (JC) competing with Silva for that advanced role'.
    Silva isn't playing as a traditional no.10, but seems to be the more advanced of the centre midfielders.
    JC is probably more cut out for the no.10 that we dont really utilise, therefore Silva gets the gig unless JC develops his all round midfield game.


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  3. #4877
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post

    - First, it makes no sense football-wise for Forest. You're in desperate need for creative attacking players, and I don't see them rushing through the doors of the club so far. A bencher Carvalho is more useful than no Carvalho at all.
    I agree with your philosophy, but think that's a bit unfair on Mighten & Johnson. If either were to get Carvalho's place on the bench for the 2nd half of the season, I'd fancy them to contribute at least what he has so far.


  4. #4878
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    The fact that Carvalho is currently behind a "no goal but best we've got" Silva shows how badly out of form he is. I would love someone to come in and take him but on current form I can't see anyone coming in this January. We can just hope he does something when it gets a bit warmer and we play 2 or 3 dead rubbers at the end of the season and someone shows some interest.

    I really do hope the frustrating little bastard proves me wrong.


  5. #4879
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    - First, it makes no sense football-wise for Forest. You're in desperate need for creative attacking players, and I don't see them rushing through the doors of the club so far. A bencher Carvalho is more useful than no Carvalho at all.
    I would counter this with two things: Firstly, we don't play with an out-and-out #10 under Lamouchi anyway, and two if we sell Carvalho I would expect a small proportion of the proceeds to be used to buy a player that can play the #10 role - to give us flexibility from the main tactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    - As for us, let me explain again why he does not fit. We play mainly 4-2-3-1 with a no. ten. Our no. 10, Fortounis, our highest paid star, has just come back from six months of injury, and he's in desperate need of playing time in order to be ready for the playoffs (there's a new system in the league this season). Besides Fortounis, there's also Mathieu Valbuena, who may be 35, but still has a great pass in him, and he fights like a teenager.
    Which would make sense for him to go to you. You have a player with a recent injury history and one who is set to retire soon. Carvalho could be a ready made replacement.


    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    Let me now get back to the logistic argument. Let's say Vrentzos cooks the books and a flow of 10m from Olympiacos to Forest is announced (creating problems for us, but let's forget this for a moment, since it's of no concern for you). This would represent a useful cash flow for you at this juncture. But what does it mean for the player, and the two clubs in the long run? For the player it clearly means relegation to a lower league. Yes, he could in theory shine here but what would that mean for his market value? There's always a ceiling for the price a player from such a league fetches in the market. If Carvalho managing 20 goals and 20 assists in the Greek league fetches X euros, he fetches 3X euros managing the same amount of goals and assists in the Championship. In the long run, demoting Carvalho to the Greek league would mean that Forest (and the Marinakis administration of both clubs) did not manage to properly work on a major investment, and either make a lot of money or have a valuable player. In other words, it would signify a blatant failure.
    You sold Retsos for ever-so-slightly more than our record sale. Whilst I typically agree that a star performing player in the Championship is more likely to go for bigger money than a good player in Greece, the reality is Carvalho isn't a star player, and thus his resale value as per Championship "OK" players is sub £5m, which I suspect would be about what he'd be worth if he went to you. Agree about the failure of a major investment, but "working on it" doesn't guarantee anything. He could just fester on our bench for a bit more, value heading towards £0 and then leave on a free at end of contract. That is currently the most likely scenario given where we are, and would represent the biggest failure of all.

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  6. #4880
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz42 View Post
    I agree, that's why I said 'if hes (JC) competing with Silva for that advanced role'.
    Silva isn't playing as a traditional no.10, but seems to be the more advanced of the centre midfielders.
    JC is probably more cut out for the no.10 that we dont really utilise, therefore Silva gets the gig unless JC develops his all round midfield game.
    This is all splitting hairs and back to the excuses for me.
    The 'advanced role' even if it isn't a text-book number 10, should be close enough to Carvalho's 'preferred role' for him to actually contribute something, even if it's not his optimum. The fact that he's offering next to nothing is completey on him.


  7. #4881
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    The 'advanced role' even if it isn't a text-book number 10, should be close enough to Carvalho's 'preferred role' for him to actually contribute something, even if it's not his optimum. The fact that he's offering next to nothing is completey on him.
    And also points to Silva being a specialist set piece taker, and little else?

    I don't think that Lamouchi knows how to get the best out of either of those two.


  8. #4882
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    This is all splitting hairs and back to the excuses for me.
    The 'advanced role' even if it isn't a text-book number 10, should be close enough to Carvalho's 'preferred role' for him to actually contribute something, even if it's not his optimum. The fact that he's offering next to nothing is completey on him.
    I agree, I'm not looking to make excuses for him.
    Its always on the players to perform and give their best.
    Certainly in his case he hasn't shown anything like enough when hes had his chances.
    He needs to develop his game accordingly, like they all should strive to do.


  9. #4883
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkshire Red View Post
    And also points to Silva being a specialist set piece taker, and little else?

    I don't think that Lamouchi knows how to get the best out of either of those two.
    We dont know the brief though. If Lamouchi were to ask Silva to make sure he completes 8 out of 10 passes, get it wide as often as possible, try a few things outside the danger zone & defend from the front. Then Id assume Silva would be making his manager happy, which is the ultimate aim here.


  10. #4884
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    You sold Retsos for ever-so-slightly more than our record sale. Whilst I typically agree that a star performing player in the Championship is more likely to go for bigger money than a good player in Greece, the reality is Carvalho isn't a star player, and thus his resale value as per Championship "OK" players is sub £5m, which I suspect would be about what he'd be worth if he went to you. Agree about the failure of a major investment, but "working on it" doesn't guarantee anything. He could just fester on our bench for a bit more, value heading towards £0 and then leave on a free at end of contract. That is currently the most likely scenario given where we are, and would represent the biggest failure of all.
    The Retsos sale has been the culmination of ten years of work of the Marinakis regime with the agent mafia and with the backstages of European transfer negotiations. It took a lot of trial and error attempts, and a lot of crap players brought in by agents to get to the stage where we are now, when we can sell players far above their market price, and most certainly two or three times more than comparable players of other Greek teams.

    This is another reason why I think "Carvalho to Oly" would be an admission of failure.

    Incidentally, the Mendes gamble apparently did not pay off. If I haven't missed something, he's done no work either with you or with us, after the Carvalho summer, and the Portugueuse you and we are targeting belong to Gonēalves, not Mendes.

    He probably proved too big a shark for the deal to be profitable for both sides, I guess.


  11. #4885
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    Incidentally, the Mendes gamble apparently did not pay off. If I haven't missed something, he's done no work either with you or with us, after the Carvalho summer, and the Portugueuse you and we are targeting belong to Gonēalves, not Mendes.
    Has anyone seen him lately?


  12. #4886
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by congo_red View Post
    Has anyone seen him lately?
    Marinakis did, right before he dumped him in the sea with an anchor round his ankles.


  13. #4887
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiRobriguez View Post
    Marinakis did, right before he dumped him in the sea with an anchor round his ankles.
    I hear it was actually cement sneakers - anchors are surprisingly expensive.


  14. #4888
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    The Mendes Gamble sounds like a spy movie.

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  15. #4889
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    The Mendes Gamble sounds like a spy movie.
    I thought it was a Robert Ludlum novel?

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

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  16. #4890
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    I thought it was a Robert Ludlum novel?
    No. That’s the Mendes Contract.


  17. #4891
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    I‘m waiting for The Mendes Ultimatum.


  18. #4892
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Looking more like a comic farce at the moment.


  19. #4893
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    I‘m waiting for The Mendes Ultimatum.
    An ultimatum from Eva Mendes? Kinky.


  20. #4894
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    He has done some work with us recently; Mendes happens to be the Agent of Lamouchi


  21. #4895
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    I‘m waiting for The Mendes Ultimatum.
    With a follow up titled “The Marinakis Revenge”.


  22. #4896
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by GreeksBearingGifts View Post
    An ultimatum from Eva Mendes? Kinky.
    "Get off my property or I'm calling the police."


  23. #4897
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    Default Re: Joćo Carvalho

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Clarks Tash View Post
    Looking more like a comic farce at the moment.
    Preferable to comic sans, though.

    By "relegation battle", do you mean 7th, 12th or 14th?

    Quote Originally Posted by willojack View Post
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