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Thread: Massimo Luongo

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    I would say 1. We have enough youth coming through to support Cohen/Vaughn/New guy
    You need to have five midfields: at least three, and preferably four, who can be viewed as potential starters, regardless of their age, plus a youngster who will get his time only in case of injuries or card problems. Cohen/Vaughn/new guy is skeleton crew.


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  3. #27
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    Default Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Even with youth players (who may benefit more from a spell out on loan than being on the bench here), we are paper thin in terms of depth and quality in midfield, in fact I'd go as far as to say that we have one of the worst midfields in the league as things stand; immobile, slow, gives no protection to the back four, lacking creativity and match winners. We need a decent midfield general type and a quality creative player at the very minimum, otherwise next season will be another season of struggle.
    We do have available in midfield:

    David Vaughn
    Chris Cohen
    Zach Clough
    Ben Osborn
    Matty Cash
    Jorge Grant
    Thomas Lam
    Michael Mancienne
    Anel Ahmedhodzic
    Ryan Yates
    Toby Edser

    I can't see us requiring two players in that position.


  4. #28
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    We do have available in midfield:

    David Vaughn
    Chris Cohen
    Zach Clough
    Ben Osborn
    Matty Cash
    Jorge Grant
    Thomas Lam
    Michael Mancienne
    Anel Ahmedhodzic
    Ryan Yates
    Toby Edser

    I can't see us requiring two players in that position.
    Clough is more of a number 10 / forward, Mancienne is a defender, Lam won't be here next season, we'll be lucky to squeeze 20 games each out of Cohen and Vaughan and most of the rest are unproven youth players who would benefit far more from a spell out on loan in League One/Two than being thrown in at the deep end here.

    If we go into next season with just that lot plus one more, I'd fully expect another relegation battle. Thankfully, I think Warburton sees midfield as an area where we need 2 or 3 additions and I'm pretty sure that we will have a couple of new midfielders in our starting XI come August.


  5. #29
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Clough is more of a number 10 / forward, Mancienne is a defender, Lam won't be here next season, we'll be lucky to squeeze 20 games each out of Cohen and Vaughan and most of the rest are unproven youth players who would benefit far more from a spell out on loan in League One/Two than being thrown in at the deep end here.

    If we go into next season with just that lot plus one more, I'd fully expect another relegation battle. Thankfully, I think Warburton sees midfield as an area where we need 2 or 3 additions and I'm pretty sure that we will have a couple of new midfielders in our starting XI come August.
    If we're playing 4-3-3 then I'd probably say that only one top quality addition to Osborn/Cash/Cohen/Vaughan is needed. Five quality players for three positions sounds reasonable enough, and the young lads are there in case we have an injury mare.

    Key signings for me this off-season are wingers. We arguably have the most lethal poacher in the league - but we must feed the man.


  6. #30
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Even with youth players (who may benefit more from a spell out on loan than being on the bench here), we are paper thin in terms of depth and quality in midfield.

    In fact I'd go as far as to say that we have one of the worst midfields in the league as things stand; immobile, slow, gives no protection to the back four, lacking creativity and match winners. We are incredibly weak in that area and I feel that it was one of the main reasons that we were so poor last season.

    We need a decent midfield general type and a quality creative player at the very minimum, otherwise next season will be another season of struggle.
    Your absolutely spot on, 9 games aint alot, but them games last season where Warburtons fairly simple pass & move philosophy looked fucking lost on the existing midfield, must see us reinforce that area with some quality & steel. Otherwise that away form will find us out again.


  7. #31
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    433 suggests we need 6 midfielders in total including youngsters etc, but considering how hopeless the midfield was last season we need two quality signings, or one 'big money star signing' at the absolute minimum.

    "Outside the family life, there is nothing better than winning the European Cups." Brian Clough

  8. #32
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Clough is more of a number 10 / forward, Mancienne is a defender, Lam won't be here next season, we'll be lucky to squeeze 20 games each out of Cohen and Vaughan and most of the rest are unproven youth players who would benefit far more from a spell out on loan in League One/Two than being thrown in at the deep end here.

    If we go into next season with just that lot plus one more, I'd fully expect another relegation battle. Thankfully, I think Warburton sees midfield as an area where we need 2 or 3 additions and I'm pretty sure that we will have a couple of new midfielders in our starting XI come August.
    I respectfully disagree with you.

    We're playing a 3 man midfield, in this fashion

    #10
    DM DM

    So for #10 we have:

    Zach Clough > Starter
    Ben Osborn > Starter
    Jorge Grant > Backup

    And in DM we have:

    Chris Cohen > Starter (20 games last season, so fair assessment)
    David Vaughn > Starter (31 games last season, so I think you're being unfair)
    Matty Cash > Starter (Had his L2 loan spell already and bossed it, I think this will be his season)
    Thomas Lam > Back up (Still see him being here as I like him in MW team)
    Michael Mancienne > Back up (Does a job, but a CB at heart)
    Anel Ahmedhodzic > Youth (not convinced he needs a loan but fair)
    Ryan Yates > Youth (Did really well at Barrow, then loaned to Shrewsbury in L1 where he also did well)
    Toby Edser > Youth (Does need a loan spell)

    So really if we're looking at adding cover to the DM position, we need one signing to partner one of either Vaughn or Cohen.


  9. #33
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    We do have available in midfield:

    David Vaughn
    Chris Cohen
    Zach Clough
    Ben Osborn
    Matty Cash
    Jorge Grant
    Thomas Lam
    Michael Mancienne
    Anel Ahmedhodzic
    Ryan Yates
    Toby Edser

    I can't see us requiring two players in that position.
    With that lot we stayed up on goal difference.


  10. #34
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    With that lot we stayed up on goal difference.
    In a team with 3 different managerial changes, a host of back-office upheaval and a poor recruitment drive the preseason before.

    I'm confident that those players under Warburton and a stable style of play and one excellent signing in the DM position will be able to compete with the best in the Championship. They proved it last season when Warbs came in.


  11. #35
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by tropix View Post
    If we're playing 4-3-3 then I'd probably say that only one top quality addition to Osborn/Cash/Cohen/Vaughan is needed. Five quality players for three positions sounds reasonable enough, and the young lads are there in case we have an injury mare.

    Key signings for me this off-season are wingers. We arguably have the most lethal poacher in the league - but we must feed the man.
    If we are playing 4-3-3, if anything I think that means we need more than if we were playing 4-4-2. Cohen and Vaughan combined effectively make one player given how little they play (and probably will only play bit part roles), Cash is still quite inexperienced (though has a bright future I think), Osborn is the only real dependable midfielder we have and the rest are just kids. Definitely think we need a couple more, 2 new midfield signings to go straight into the starting XI to strengthen what is by far and away our weakest area of the team.

    In addition to that, I agree that we also need a quality winger or two, and a dependable left back.


  12. #36
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    In a team with 3 different managerial changes, a host of back-office upheaval and a poor recruitment drive the preseason before.

    I'm confident that those players under Warburton and a stable style of play and one excellent signing in the DM position will be able to compete with the best in the Championship. They proved it last season when Warbs came in.
    Although we improved under Warburton, I'd definitely say that we did so in spite of our current crop of midfielders rather than because of them.


  13. #37
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    It's not just about numbers though it's about the type of player Warburton feels the squad needs. Like I said if these links the past week are correct and we're looking at Scowen, Morsy and Luongo (add Ruddock to that I guess, although I've never seen him play so I don't know his style) then it's obvious Warburton wants a high energy, box to box, get stuck in kind of a player.

    The fact we were/are also targeting McDonald suggests he wants another Vaughan, someone who will be sitting deep the entire time to break up play and orchestrate the team. That's why I think we'll more than likely see two centre midfielders come in.


  14. #38
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Although we improved under Warburton, I'd definitely say that we did so in spite of our current crop of midfielders rather than because of them.
    Vaughn, statistically and from my POV, was one of the best defensive midfielders in the division. I'd say the previous managers managed to fuck it up in spite of the squad available to them


  15. #39
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    Vaughn, statistically and from my POV, was one of the best defensive midfielders in the division. I'd say the previous managers managed to fuck it up in spite of the squad available to them
    Given these stats tend to be warped with completed 5yd backpasses, Id be inclined to take themn with a pinch of salt & use your own perception of how you feel Vaughn & Cohen were able to influence games on our behalf.

    If your still happy to roll with that then fair play, Personally Id want both replacing with players who can get us moving forward much quicker, join in with attacks & get back to defend.


  16. #40
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    Vaughn, statistically and from my POV, was one of the best defensive midfielders in the division. I'd say the previous managers managed to fuck it up in spite of the squad available to them
    Vaughan is a good player, but isn't someone who can play near 90 minutes week in, week out. He's not getting any younger either, a good player to have around but not someone who can be relied upon to play every week.

    Also, I don't think we can blame all of our struggles on previous managers, after all most of those managers were only here for a few months whereas the same core of players are the one constant in our struggles over the last few years.


  17. #41
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    To short for nffc


  18. #42
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Vaughan is a good player, but isn't someone who can play near 90 minutes week in, week out. He's not getting any younger either, a good player to have around but not someone who can be relied upon to play every week.

    Also, I don't think we can blame all of our struggles on previous managers, after all most of those managers were only here for a few months whereas the same core of players are the one constant in our struggles over the last few years.
    I think Vaughn has been managed well last season. I'd rely on him, given Warburtons emphasis on rest and recovery periods for his players. Yoga and the like.

    I agree you can't place the blame squarely at their feet, but last season was a disaster for a lot of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    Given these stats tend to be warped with completed 5yd backpasses, Id be inclined to take themn with a pinch of salt & use your own perception of how you feel Vaughn & Cohen were able to influence games on our behalf.

    If your still happy to roll with that then fair play, Personally Id want both replacing with players who can get us moving forward much quicker, join in with attacks & get back to defend.
    I do try to keep my views based on what I've actually seen with my eyes - and I've seen Vaughn dictate games and break up play with the best of them.


  19. #43
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Vaughan is a good player, but isn't someone who can play near 90 minutes week in, week out. He's not getting any younger either, a good player to have around but not someone who can be relied upon to play every week.
    I think familiarity breeds success under MW, you can't have Vaughn in & out because historically it doesnt really work for him or the team.

    Either committ to him as a first team player or have him in the squad foe emergencies. I think the latter is the common sense move personally.


  20. #44
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    I do try to keep my views based on what I've actually seen with my eyes - and I've seen Vaughn dictate games and break up play with the best of them.
    Not very often though. he's been a virtuial everpresent in a shit midfield for the last five years.

    So he can't have dictated many.


  21. #45
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. MariAndy!s View Post
    To short for nffc
    He's got a good name for a porn star.


  22. #46
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Massivemo Luongo


  23. #47
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    In a team with 3 different managerial changes, a host of back-office upheaval and a poor recruitment drive the preseason before.

    I'm confident that those players under Warburton and a stable style of play and one excellent signing in the DM position will be able to compete with the best in the Championship. They proved it last season when Warbs came in.
    Since Warburton arrived : Won 3 Drawn 2 Lost 4. Not sure that proves anything, other than the squad needs a serious overhaul, and in particular the awful midfield.

    It would be madness to stick with the same midfield that was so poor last season.


  24. #48
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXJ View Post
    We do have available in midfield:

    David Vaughn
    Chris Cohen
    Zach Clough
    Ben Osborn
    Matty Cash
    Jorge Grant
    Thomas Lam
    Michael Mancienne
    Anel Ahmedhodzic
    Ryan Yates
    Toby Edser

    I can't see us requiring two players in that position.
    Can't agree with this.

    Clough & Grant are forward players, cannot play central midfield, I would say the same for Osborn but he can play it if he had too, Lam will be on his way out. Mancienne isn't a midfielder and I will be shocked if MW played him there, Ahmedhodzic, Yates & Edser are all raw and unproven.

    Cohen, Vaughan & Cash are our only actual central midfielder - two of them are unreliable when it comes to injuries & one is still very raw. We will need 2 central midfielders if we want any glory this season.


  25. #49
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    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzarecteh View Post
    Can't agree with this.

    Clough & Grant are forward players, cannot play central midfield, I would say the same for Osborn but he can play it if he had too, Lam will be on his way out. Mancienne isn't a midfielder and I will be shocked if MW played him there, Ahmedhodzic, Yates & Edser are all raw and unproven.

    Cohen, Vaughan & Cash are our only actual central midfielder - two of them are unreliable when it comes to injuries & one is still very raw. We will need 2 central midfielders if we want any glory this season.
    I did explain a bit further down the splits in position and how MW likes to play his midfield.


  26. #50

    Default Re: Massimo Luongo

    Way I see that midfield is.......

    David Vaughn - very handy DM who you can expect half a season from
    Chris Cohen - essential to help shape club ethos, very handy CM who you can expect 10-20 games from
    Zach Clough - Too young & inexperienced to rely on all season creatively, but still currently our main creative force. Good, but needs competition.
    Ben Osborn - Mr reliable, but lacks quality.
    Matty Cash - Still has some learning & growing to do. Bench starter/backup option at best currently.
    Jorge Grant - Cheap, unproven potential.
    Thomas Lam - won't feature IMO
    Michael Mancienne - Backup DM at best
    Anel Ahmedhodzic - Too unproven to rely on
    Ryan Yates - Too unproven to rely on
    Toby Edser - Too unproven to rely on

    There's some very handy players in there, and some definite great squad players, but we still lack several first team stalwarts and a lot of quality in variours areas.

    The older players like Cohen are there to help fill gaps when needed and bring young guns through. The younger players like Cash & Clough are there to grow in to their roles over the next few seasons. But we are desperate for people already in their prime, who can provide quality & reliable defensive or attacking contributions.

    “All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.”

 

 

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