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  1. #1501
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Ray's Redlist View Post
    Or you could argue they're massively underrated by some fans, as happened in the case of Lascelles. It's like if they're not playing like seasoned top level professionals straight away then they must be overrated. It's at best a medium term investment. And even at their current stage of development they're both better than the rest of the squad.

    Worrall would be looking great with two defensive midfielders sitting deep and being able to row Z it. He's just unlucky to miss a few games and now have to wait his turn.

    But you know, why not just slag them off based on your arbitrary opinion in a kind of Joe Kinnear football man to the core kind of way. Very constructive, nicely done sir.
    Jamaal is a good example.

    A while back, I used to work in Colwick, and often used to fiddle my calendar to nip off and watch the youth games down the road at the Academy.

    I followed Jamaal’s development with interest, as there was something about him that caught the eye; although, regular readers will also recall me actually thinking another youth team player, Karlton Watson, was maybe the better prospect (Karlton’s career was sadly derailed by a horrible ankle injury though).

    I watched Jamaal several times at youth level and through his introduction into the side, and he sometimes got absolutely slated by some on here, but I was pretty confident in him and he’s certainly made the step up look easy.

    With him and Westley Morgan, two former Forest Centre-Halves captaining their sides in the Premier League, there’s something we should have a little bit of pride about, at least.

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  3. #1502
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by tjhooker View Post
    He's also slow and I don't know why anyone would expect him to get faster. He's tall but never wins a header. His first touch yesterday was always about 3 yards away from him.
    Slow? Oh come on, he's anything but slow for a striker. The only problem that I see which will be hard to fix despite his young age is, indeed, his poor first touch. And, of course, the diving, for which you should cut him no slack.


  4. #1503
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Mostly the academy players are overrated by fans, which is the same at all clubs. Will Hughes is now a decent Premier League squad player, but according to Sheep fans he was destined to be winning the Champions League every season at Barca or Bayern.

    Lascelles looked like a player who had all the attributes to be a good Premier League player if he put in the effort. Burke also looked capable of one day being a regular for a team at a higher level. Brereton does too, but as people say, there are deficits to his game which means we are talking mid Premier League rather than the top end. Look at a huge talent like 17 year old Ryan Sessegnon to see what a player with the potential to play for an elite club looks like.

    As we’ve discussed previously, the job of the academy is to provide squad players for the level we are at, and to provide income for the club, and from that point of view it’s been very successful in recent times.

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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    If you look around the 'elite clubs' even with their resources they struggle to produce academy products ofvthe right calibre.

    This suggests to me there's something amiss with the academy system in general.

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  6. #1505
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Unity View Post
    If you look around the 'elite clubs' even with their resources they struggle to produce academy products ofvthe right calibre.

    This suggests to me there's something amiss with the academy system in general.
    There's certainly something wrong when it comes to getting them into the first team from the academy. England's youth sides have been doing very well the last 2 or 3 years which suggests the talent is being produced it's just not making that final leap and we know why that is. Why play Joe Bloggs from the academy when you can go and buy 'insert multi-million pound player from Europe' instead.

    I'd really love the FA to make a rule about academy players in match day squads, I know they have the home grown rule but it doesn't do enough.

    I recently read an article where FIFA (I think) were talking about scrapping the loan system altogether to combat stockpiling of players, I wonder what effect that would have on academy talent, they more likely to be given a go because the club know they'll just up and leave if they can't get football? Or waste away even more?


  7. #1506
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by J'Psycho'C66 View Post
    There's certainly something wrong when it comes to getting them into the first team from the academy. England's youth sides have been doing very well the last 2 or 3 years which suggests the talent is being produced it's just not making that final leap and we know why that is. Why play Joe Bloggs from the academy when you can go and buy 'insert multi-million pound player from Europe' instead.

    I'd really love the FA to make a rule about academy players in match day squads, I know they have the home grown rule but it doesn't do enough.

    I recently read an article where FIFA (I think) were talking about scrapping the loan system altogether to combat stockpiling of players, I wonder what effect that would have on academy talent, they more likely to be given a go because the club know they'll just up and leave if they can't get football? Or waste away even more?

    Really hope this happens. Maybe with a number restriction like 5-8 can be loaned out by one club. That will allow the clubs who use the loan system for a legitimate long term reason for their club from a playing a perspective.

    Take a club like Chelsea. Their squad is threadbare but they've loaned out some of the most talented young players in the country.

    These young players are either backed by their parent club or sold so they can start a solid base in their careers and build themselves up as part of a team and football club and not thinking about themselves and how they need to impress.

    I can get two decent young teams from Chelsea loanees.

    Aina Zouma Kalas Kenedy
    Loftus-Cheek Baker
    Musonda Mount Boga
    Abraham

    Tomori Clarke-S Hector DaSilva
    van Ginkel CM
    Brown Palmer Piazon
    Ugbo

    Not including senior players they've bought like Miazga, Omeruo, Pasalic, Rahman and Batshuayi
    Or players they've held on to whose careers or floating away like Houghton, Kane, Dabo

    Last edited by BryanRoy; 17-04-18 at 09:42.

  8. #1507

    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    You can't deny that we were doing better and higher up the table when we'd Worrall & Walker featuring more regular.

    “All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.”

  9. #1508
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by J'Psycho'C66 View Post
    There's certainly something wrong when it comes to getting them into the first team from the academy. England's youth sides have been doing very well the last 2 or 3 years which suggests the talent is being produced it's just not making that final leap and we know why that is. Why play Joe Bloggs from the academy when you can go and buy 'insert multi-million pound player from Europe' instead.

    I'd really love the FA to make a rule about academy players in match day squads, I know they have the home grown rule but it doesn't do enough.

    I recently read an article where FIFA (I think) were talking about scrapping the loan system altogether to combat stockpiling of players, I wonder what effect that would have on academy talent, they more likely to be given a go because the club know they'll just up and leave if they can't get football? Or waste away even more?
    It would affect the top Italian clubs the most, where Chelsea's approach seems to be the norm.

    It sounds like a good idea in principle, but I wonder about the unintended consequences if this came in. Would there be any incentive for the top clubs to run an academy for instance? Its hard to see how Man City's new state of the art academy 'village would pay for itself.


  10. #1509
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    Really hope this happens. Maybe with a number restriction like 5-8 can be loaned out by one club. That will allow the clubs who use the loan system for a legitimate long term reason for their club from a playing a perspective.

    Take a club like Chelsea. Their squad is threadbare but they've loaned out some of the most talented young players in the country.

    These young players are either backed by their parent club or sold so they can start a solid base in their careers and build themselves up as part of a team and football club and not thinking about themselves and how they need to impress.

    I can get two decent young teams from Chelsea loanees.

    Aina Zouma Kalas Kenedy
    Loftus-Cheek Baker
    Musonda Mount Boga
    Abraham

    Tomori Clarke-S Hector DaSilva
    van Ginkel CM
    Brown Palmer Piazon
    Ugbo

    Not including senior players they've bought like Miazga, Omeruo, Pasalic, Rahman and Batshuayi
    Or players they've held on to whose careers or floating away like Houghton, Kane, Dabo
    Kalas is now Chelsea's longest serving player, he's played 2 games for them in 8 years.


  11. #1510
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    It would affect the top Italian clubs the most, where Chelsea's approach seems to be the norm.

    It sounds like a good idea in principle, but I wonder about the unintended consequences if this came in. Would there be any incentive for the top clubs to run an academy for instance? Its hard to see how Man City's new state of the art academy 'village would pay for itself.
    You could also see Premier League sides pushing for B teams in lower leagues if they did scrap loans as well.


  12. #1511
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-ugginblowupyourbakery View Post
    You can't deny that we were doing better and higher up the table when we'd Worrall & Walker featuring more regular.
    True but you also can't deny that we were higher up the table when Matt Mills was here as well...


  13. #1512
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by J'Psycho'C66 View Post
    You could also see Premier League sides pushing for B teams in lower leagues if they did scrap loans as well.
    We haven't heard the end of this that is for sure. The big believing they getting bigger and believe clubs in L1/L2 are of little significance.


  14. #1513
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by J'Psycho'C66 View Post
    You could also see Premier League sides pushing for B teams in lower leagues if they did scrap loans as well.
    Yes, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The Barca and Real model.


  15. #1514
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by J'Psycho'C66 View Post
    I recently read an article where FIFA (I think) were talking about scrapping the loan system altogether to combat stockpiling of players, I wonder what effect that would have on academy talent.
    The only result such a measure would have would be the Italian way: joined ownership or complicated agreements with release of players with a fixed buy-back option (we do many of those).


  16. #1515
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    The positives for Brereton are that he is young, at the start of his career and has the world at his feet. He is not the finished the article and it's foolish for anyone to expect him to be.

    But that is also the problem with Brereton. He is playing for a club with high aspirations and expectations. We need players in that position who are going to perform now, rather than with an eye on them doing it in several years time at another club. Because if Brereton is the player we all think he's capable of being then he isn't going to be here in two years anyway.

    For me, I want Forest to be successful and not a particular player. I don't spend a small fortune on tickets because I want to watch young players develop before being sold. If an academy player can come in and claim a place because he's the best option then that is ideal. There has to be a pathway for academy prospects in to the matchday squad but the first team should be the pinnacle - not a glorified next phase of the academy on their way to elsewhere. So if Karanka can bring someone in who will push us up the table next season and replace Brereton then I am not fussed. The success of the team comes above everything else in my opinion.

    Next season, Brereton will hopefully take what he has learned from this rough season and will fight for a place with a couple of decent new additions and continue to learn from that challenge.

    We keep talking about building a side around exciting, talented young players but if we continue to be shit they are just going to get bought by bigger clubs quickly and then we stay stuck down here. Forest need to get up and into a stronger position so they can retain players of quality and build around them from a position of strength. Or at least that is my view.

    Last edited by incapable hulk; 17-04-18 at 10:31.
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  17. #1516
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    I think he has been very good under Karanka and the obvious reason is to me he is only a #9 and he is the modern #9 - I also wouldn't be critical of how Warburton used him either. I think when you know you got a good young player like him, Worrall, Osborn, Cash and others you will find opportunities for them.

    Good to see him in the team of the week.




  18. #1517
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Salary and player cap.

    Limit how many players can be on your books. Limit loans out, like they limit loans in. Homegrown rule updates, Must have X numbers of players that have come from your academy, not just poached off others in matchday squad .

    A salary limit for every team, x in the prem y in the championship. You go over, points deduction.

    Agent rules tightened. No agent can earn more than x percent in any deal from any source, stop agents working for clubs and players.

    I walk around like everything is fine but deep down, in my shoe, my sock is sliding off.

  19. #1518
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by incapable hulk View Post
    The positives for Brereton are that he is young, at the start of his career and has the world at his feet. He is not the finished the article and it's foolish for anyone to expect him to be.

    But that is also the problem with Brereton. He is playing for a club with high aspirations and expectations. We need players in that position who are going to perform now, rather than with an eye on them doing it in several years time at another club. Because if Brereton is the player we all think he's capable of being then he isn't going to be here in two years anyway.

    For me, I want Forest to be successful and not a particular player. I don't spend a small fortune on tickets because I want to watch young players develop before being sold. If an academy player can come in and claim a place because he's the best option then that is ideal. There has to be a pathway for academy prospects in to the matchday squad but the first team should be the pinnacle - not a glorified next phase of the academy on their way to elsewhere. So if Karanka can bring someone in who will push us up the table next season and replace Brereton then I am not fussed. The success of the team comes above everything else in my opinion.

    Next season, Brereton will hopefully take what he has learned from this rough season and will fight for a place with a couple of decent new additions and continue to learn from that challenge.

    We keep talking about building a side around exciting, talented young players but if we continue to be shit they are just going to get bought by bigger clubs quickly and then we stay stuck down here. Forest need to get up and into a stronger position so they can retain players of quality and build around them from a position of strength. Or at least that is my view.
    That's how I see it too hulk.

    The problem we have is that either our academy lads aren't good enough for the first team yet, or they are good enough and as such get bought up by clubs higher up the league. There's a brief sweet spot where an academy graduate is good enough and is first choice in the side, but it doesn't last long (eg. Burke)

    This is what I can see happening with Ben - once he's got to the point where he is the real deal, he'll be on his way before long. It's the harsh reality of being a mid-table second-tier club I guess.


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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangerz View Post
    That's how I see it too hulk.

    The problem we have is that either our academy lads aren't good enough for the first team yet, or they are good enough and as such get bought up by clubs higher up the league. There's a brief sweet spot where an academy graduate is good enough and is first choice in the side, but it doesn't last long (eg. Burke)

    This is what I can see happening with Ben - once he's got to the point where he is the real deal, he'll be on his way before long. It's the harsh reality of being a mid-table second-tier club I guess.
    Let's make sure we don't buy Vellios' , Murphy's , Fryatt's, Veldwijk's or loan McCormack's, Dumitru's, Macheda's, O'Grady's, Akpom's then.

    Let's get quality so these senior guys can contribute and carry the load when the time comes.

    Because where we are and what we are - we can't buy teams or squad's.

    It's time we start getting our recruitment right.


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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. MariAndy!s View Post
    Salary and player cap.

    Limit how many players can be on your books. Limit loans out, like they limit loans in. Homegrown rule updates, Must have X numbers of players that have come from your academy, not just poached off others in matchday squad .

    A salary limit for every team, x in the prem y in the championship. You go over, points deduction.

    Agent rules tightened. No agent can earn more than x percent in any deal from any source, stop agents working for clubs and players.
    Agree mate. Restriction of trade argument is bullshit too. Restrictions are needed in football now.


  22. #1521
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    Let's make sure we don't buy Vellios' , Murphy's , Fryatt's, Veldwijk's or loan McCormack's, Dumitru's, Macheda's, O'Grady's, Akpom's then.

    Let's get quality so these senior guys can contribute and carry the load when the time comes.
    Absolutely. The point I'm making is essentially the same as hulk's - that we need players who can perform now so we can push on up the league and be in a better position to hold on to Brereton when he starts to reach his peak.


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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    It's not restriction of trade, you're not stopping them going to Ilkeston town on £250/week


  24. #1523
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Mostly the academy players are overrated by fans, which is the same at all clubs. Will Hughes is now a decent Premier League squad player, but according to Sheep fans he was destined to be winning the Champions League every season at Barca or Bayern.

    Lascelles looked like a player who had all the attributes to be a good Premier League player if he put in the effort. Burke also looked capable of one day being a regular for a team at a higher level. Brereton does too, but as people say, there are deficits to his game which means we are talking mid Premier League rather than the top end. Look at a huge talent like 17 year old Ryan Sessegnon to see what a player with the potential to play for an elite club looks like.

    As we’ve discussed previously, the job of the academy is to provide squad players for the level we are at, and to provide income for the club, and from that point of view it’s been very successful in recent times.
    You're right about Sessegnon. He will be a player.

    There are quite a few cases of late bloomers but more often than not the lads that make it at a higher level are those that deliver performances consistently at a young age. Not just glimpses here and there.

    Even when I was growing up in the late 90s, you had Bellamy and Robbie Keane doing it every week at the age of 17 in this league.

    I'm not sure if Brereton's progress has just stunted slightly, but he's still definitely got the talent.


  25. #1524
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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangerz View Post
    That's how I see it too hulk.

    The problem we have is that either our academy lads aren't good enough for the first team yet, or they are good enough and as such get bought up by clubs higher up the league. There's a brief sweet spot where an academy graduate is good enough and is first choice in the side, but it doesn't last long (eg. Burke)

    This is what I can see happening with Ben - once he's got to the point where he is the real deal, he'll be on his way before long. It's the harsh reality of being a mid-table second-tier club I guess.
    That is it in a nutshell. We won't get to reap the benefits from these players if they start to make a difference because we won't have the power to hold on to them. We'll make money, but as fans is that what our priority is?

    The overriding goal of this club has to be to get into the Premier League. A balance has to be found that does give the academy players a pathway into the team, but also allows the team to press to it's fullest capabilities each season. If we can get into the Premier League then we will be a more attractive place for our best players to stay for longer and if they are special talents the club will benefit even more.

    Last edited by incapable hulk; 17-04-18 at 11:40.

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    Default Re: The Eighteen-year-old Centre Forward we won’t talk about.

    Completely agree Hulk.

    There has to be the right balance. Not an over-reliance on one thing or the other, but just a good blend that helps us get promoted.

    At the same time that we're nurturing our own with the help of the more experienced players, the young players should be learning and trying to compete at the same level as them.

    Ultimately all pulling together in the same direction towards success.


 

 

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