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  1. #5901
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    The paradox of Israel:

    You can return to a place that you don't belong.

    Many people who born there, and their progeny, cannot.

    I have no problem with your Aliyah, which is consistent with my view of human migration

    We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs - Giuseppe Garibaldi | vivit post funera virtus - Emprorer Tiberius

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  3. #5902
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    You said the IHRA said people cant criticise Israel, which isn't the case.
    My irony didn't come across.

    I was being pedantic about people using IHRA to dismiss, reject or otherwise diminish genuine concerns and branding them anti-Semitic.

    "Ive only met Andy....last week actually and can confirm he is in 2nd place in sexiest fucker on here stakes." -Barry

  4. #5903
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Joao CarvAndy!ho View Post
    My irony didn't come across.

    I was being pedantic about people using IHRA to dismiss, reject or otherwise diminish genuine concerns and branding them anti-Semitic.
    The IHRA is very clear. Yes there are some Jews, particularly within the Orthodox governing bodies who find tropes where there really aren't any. Criticising Soros for funding what he does is not antisemitic. Yes he has a political agenda but so do many other wealthy people like the Clooneys who are not Jewish.

    The IHRA is aimed ostensively at those who make a career out of being anti-Israel and ignore all other conflicts, and some are self hating Jews.


  5. #5904
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    The paradox of Israel:

    You can return to a place that you don't belong.

    Many people who born there, and their progeny, cannot.

    I have no problem with your Aliyah, which is consistent with my view of human migration

    Did you watch the video from the UN I posted?


  6. #5905
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    The reason that Israel was recognised as a state is because after WW2 it was very clear that no matter how much Jews integrated into a society they could never be certain of safety, and as such needed a country of their own. That region has always had a Jewish community anyway.

    I have said on here before that Israel faces an unsolvable paradox of either being a religious state or a secular one and it will always have to live with that and find a balance.

    Your hypothetical Israel War with France or the UK would depend on who I thought was in the right. Many people these days would be faced with similar decisions because of where they live or who they married. I am not the only one on this forum who has divided loyalties, it is way of life these days. Unless of course you are of the belief that it is ONLY Jews who have divided loyalties?

    My dog in the fight is that if things got really bad again I can make Aliyah. Many French Jews already have.

    Watch this from the UN and then tell me your answer, being as you seem to know so much about The Jewish Problem. It is called Where are your Jews?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9YcAEYr7Ww
    I think you need to go a fair bit further back than the end of the second world war. The 1922 mandate was the culmination of 20 years of campaigning work by Lord Balfour to establish a Jewish state and I believe immigration to Israel was ongoing from very shortly after the mandate.

    I don't think they have an unsolvable paradox at all. Israeli governments find it extremely useful for the country to be classed as religious it enables them to play the antisemitism card every time they do something which other populations would find unacceptable.

    I can't speak for France but non of my Jewish friends in the UK feel threatened or in danger; now that may be because the vast bulk of genuine antisemitic crimes occur in London and Manchester maybe Nottinghamshire doesn't suffer in the same way. I suspect that the spike in race related hate crimes in the UK will reduce once the Brexit thing has settled.

    I think the situation in the Middle East does not make Aliyah a great idea better to stick with Diaspora!

    That video? I guess as human rights consultants the ONG has to speak on current issues he asks questions however he fails to ask how Israel justified its attack on Egypt or the seizing of Palestinian lands, ask one question ask them all.

    How do you solve the problem? Israel should pull back to the 1922 borders, job done.

    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

  7. #5906
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    Did you watch the video from the UN I posted?
    Couple of points on that video

    The speaker Hillel Neuer is Jewish and was educated at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem so his view is not going to be unbiased although the organisation he works for is in theory supposed to be.

    Just look at the way way he acts in this debate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0vpwN3GVSU


  8. #5907
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    Did you watch the video from the UN I posted?
    Yes I did.

    It bears no relevance to the paradox I presented.


  9. #5908
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Alabama:

    You have to factor in the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement where having defeated the Ottoman Empire who ruled that entire region, the French and British carved it up to suit their own political interests and which failed to acknowledge the various tribes (including Jews) who lived in what is now Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. My Grandfather was part of the force that liberated Jerusalem from the Ottoman Turks.

    The issue of Israel as a secular or religious state IS an unsolvable paradox because so many laws like Shabbat trading, Public Holidays, Marriage, Conversion, Aliyah, Kashrut etc are all viewed differently. It is just the same as in the US and the calls from the Left to cancel Thanksgiving because it is colonialist.

    If Israel went back to the 1922, which is actually not possible anyway, the country would be unsustainable and not defendable.

    Israel never seized Palestinian land; when the Syrians, Jordanians and Egyptians launched their attacks, many Arabs fled to Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Should the US give Texas back to Mexico?


  10. #5909
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    Yes I did.

    It bears no relevance to the paradox I presented.
    That is because you package everything in little boxes to suit your political position and never look at the big picture.


  11. #5910
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    Default US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post

    The issue of Israel as a secular or religious state IS an unsolvable paradox because so many laws like Shabbat trading, Public Holidays, Marriage, Conversion, Aliyah, Kashrut etc are all viewed differently. It is just the same as in the US and the calls from the Left to cancel Thanksgiving because it is colonialist.

    If Israel went back to the 1922, which is actually not possible anyway, the country would be unsustainable and not defendable?


    It is possible, of course it is. It would mean redrawing borders and resettling inhabitants, of course, but it is possible. Unlikely, but possible.

    (And no, I won’t make jokes about the Israelis seemingly able to resettle their own people into occupied areas, although they manage that just fine).

    And - as i have posted previously on this topic - there is an inherent responsibility for the British government here, mainly on the basis of their giving up their Palestinian mandate in 1947 and walking away. Had they not done so, the Middle East might look a little different today.

    Also, the point about the post-Ottoman carve-up is valid, but that’s been happening for centuries, since the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, when the Spanish and Portuguese carved up the new world between them, without hardly stepping foot in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    Israel never seized Palestinian land; when the Syrians, Jordanians and Egyptians launched their attacks, many Arabs fled to Syria, Jordan and Egypt.?
    Er, what about the Golan? And the West Bank? And the Sinai from the Egyptians? (Granted, they gave that back).

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    Should the US give Texas back to Mexico?
    There is a sizeable lobby in Mexico that would like nothing better than that; of course it won’t happen either.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    — Joe Strummer

  12. #5911
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Chris, the Golan was won from Syria after they attacked Israel. It is the spoils of war and also Syria still refuses to make peace with Israel the way the Egyptian have.

    The West Bank is largely under Palestinian Rule.

    Israel left Gaza and what happened? The Palestinians destroyed the infrastructure Israel donated them and Israel got rockets and terrorism as a thank you. Don't forget also the Hamas v Fatah civil war where Hamas slaughtered many Fatah supporters and members before they threw the rest out.

    Blaming Balfour is nonsense, most of the problems in the ME stem from the Soviet support of terror in the 1970s mostly with the help of your East German mates. They were helping the IRA at the same time. Many of the tropes used by the current BDS movement are Soviet propaganda from that era and fake.

    The tide has turned against the corrupt and brutal Palestinian regimes where they no longer have the support of the Sunni Governments in the region and the West has tired of giving them billions in aid for it to be hived off into the Swiss bank accounts of the Hamas and Fatah elite.

    As I have said before we are heading I believe for the Three State solution, where Israel retains the Golan and parts of the West Bank, Egypt donates land to increase the size of Gaza and the West Bank Arabs return to being the Jordanians they actually are.


  13. #5912
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    I won’t claim to have any solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I tend to agree with large parts of Sam Harris’ thoughts on it.



    https://samharris.org/podcasts/why-d...ticize-israel/

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  14. #5913
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    My solution is a classic medieval marriage alliance.

    Every Israeli marries a Palestinian and the newly joined government flips a coin every time a child is born to decide which religion they follow.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


  15. #5914
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Project Zeus View Post
    My solution is a classic medieval marriage alliance.

    Every Israeli marries a Palestinian and the newly joined government flips a coin every time a child is born to decide which religion they follow.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    More the judgement of Solomon than medieval but never the less as practical as anything the politicians have come up with!


  16. #5915
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Project Zeus View Post
    My solution is a classic medieval marriage alliance.

    Every Israeli marries a Palestinian and the newly joined government flips a coin every time a child is born to decide which religion they follow.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    I know a couple of Jews who married Muslims and it generally doesn't end well. Jewish women are particularly opinionated and many Muslim men are not keen on that.

    Plus as well the kids can only be raised in one culture or the other.

    One Jewish friend of mine left her Muslim husband after the marriage turned violent, both kids were raised Muslim, the daughter married a Muslim and has gone fundamentalist and hates her Mum's return to Judaism. Her son was such a star Islamic student that everyone thought he would become an Imam. However he became disillusioned with Islam and left, but now always fears for his life.


  17. #5916
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    That is because you package everything in little boxes to suit your political position and never look at the big picture.
    Go on then. What's the big picture?


  18. #5917
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    Go on then. What's the big picture?
    The Guardian does the same:

    For example they criticise Trump's Jerusalem embassy move and deliberately fail to point out that both Obama and Dubya promised to do exactly the same as part of their election campaign, but never fulfilled the promise.

    Therefore the bigger picture is that Trump simply fulfilled a long standing promise of his two predecessors.

    It is all to easy to shout "whataboutery" but it is only by comparisons that we make good judgements. Both Labour and the Tories are notorious for hijacking each others ideas and for blaming the other for things they do themselves.

    Sadiq Khan says he has not got enough police resources to fight knife crime yet when there is a protest there are plenty of cops on hand.

    When Cathy Newman tried to put Rees-Mogg on the spot by asking had he ever taken drugs, he replied "No I haven't, have you?" To which Newman embarrassingly ducked the question. The big picture is that Mogg probably never has taken drugs but many in Westminster and the MSM do, including probably Newman.


  19. #5918
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    The Guardian does the same:

    For example they criticise Trump's Jerusalem embassy move and deliberately fail to point out that both Obama and Dubya promised to do exactly the same as part of their election campaign, but never fulfilled the promise.

    Therefore the bigger picture is that Trump simply fulfilled a long standing promise of his two predecessors.

    It is all to easy to shout "whataboutery" but it is only by comparisons that we make good judgements. Both Labour and the Tories are notorious for hijacking each others ideas and for blaming the other for things they do themselves.

    Sadiq Khan says he has not got enough police resources to fight knife crime yet when there is a protest there are plenty of cops on hand.

    When Cathy Newman tried to put Rees-Mogg on the spot by asking had he ever taken drugs, he replied "No I haven't, have you?" To which Newman embarrassingly ducked the question. The big picture is that Mogg probably never has taken drugs but many in Westminster and the MSM do, including probably Newman.
    This contains a) no big picture and b) no relevance to my original post responding to your paradox claim or to my response to video from unWatch


  20. #5919
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    No, I didn't say that.

    Commenting on Trump doesn't make for condoning China, Sudan or anywhere else.

    Your just silly. Even my 11 year old daughter is beyond that kind of game.
    No Redemption, you MUST endorse either Trump or Xi. You can't condone both. It's not allowed.


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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post

    Sadiq Khan says he has not got enough police resources to fight knife crime yet when there is a protest there are plenty of cops on hand.
    Hmmm. OK.

    So, you’re saying that Sadiq is wrong, when there are Police on hand to target a single demonstration at one specific site, as opposed to the Metropolitan Police having to somehow cover the entire 607 square miles of London at the same time, to try and prevent knife crime?

    Inhale to say, I think the Mayor of London is more in the right here.


  22. #5921
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    This contains a) no big picture and b) no relevance to my original post responding to your paradox claim or to my response to video from unWatch
    I have told you many times before I was taught in University, Shul and at Home to NOT look at things in isolation but to compare, contrast and critique.

    There is relevance to my replies but you just refuse to see it.


  23. #5922
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
    Hmmm. OK.

    So, you’re saying that Sadiq is wrong, when there are Police on hand to target a single demonstration at one specific site, as opposed to the Metropolitan Police having to somehow cover the entire 607 square miles of London at the same time, to try and prevent knife crime?

    Inhale to say, I think the Mayor of London is more in the right here.
    The UK Police "Service" is emasculated and often finds it far easier to target matters that don't risk them getting into political hot water.
    Given more resources they would most likely spend their time hunting down people saying "offensive" things on the internet than sorting out knife crime.

    You should know as well as I do that it is not about how many staff members you have but how dedicated and focused they are to dealing with the task at hand.


  24. #5923
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    I have told you many times before I was taught in University, Shul and at Home to NOT look at things in isolation but to compare, contrast and critique.

    There is relevance to my replies but you just refuse to see it.
    If they are there, all your university, shul and home education are not enabling you to make it clear where in the big picture my comments sit.


  25. #5924
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    I have told you many times before I was taught in University, Shul and at Home to NOT look at things in isolation but to compare, contrast and critique.

    There is relevance to my replies but you just refuse to see it.
    But you never do ...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  26. #5925
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    Default Re: US to Trump all the other crazy stuff going on in the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Project Zeus View Post
    My solution is a classic medieval marriage alliance.

    Every Israeli marries a Palestinian and the newly joined government flips a coin every time a child is born to decide which religion they follow.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    or just drop religion


 

 

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