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Thread: Jorge Grant

      
  1. #51
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Burke is clearly the pick of the young lads, he's got the physical and technical attributes required for the higher leagues.

    Grant and Walker could both be good but aren't quite as raw as Burke, so both need to learn some nous more than anything to be able to make it. Better position, off the ball movement... that kind of thing. Burke needs to get better at those things too but he'll get by well enough with his physicality that the other can't rely on.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    People were saying similar things about Grant not being good enough last season. Then he came into the side this season and we were all raving about him, and now he's barely been played and we are back to him not being quite good enough.

    Like many players he will only improve, or develop consistency by playing games.

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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    The loans will go their merry way shortly so we should be playing these raw young fearless kids,lets be honest can they do any worse than the shit we have had to put up with
    this season


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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRobbo View Post
    Couldn't agree more BR. Yesterday was the perfect example - he was full of little twists, turns & flicks but never looked threatening & certainly didn't stand out as an overage player.
    That is exactly it RR. Having good flicks and tricks can only take you so far. The end product has been a huge issue for him and at nearly 22 he needs to be dominating the u21 league but he doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
    I'd personally rate Grant above both Walker and Burke, as I feel for his position he's closer to being a finished product than those two who still have a lot to learn.
    The evidence when Burke/Walker is pulled from the u21 team is far more evident than Grant and he is 3/4 years older than them. They have longer contracts and have international caps. Think your comment is meant to be the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by incapable hulk View Post
    People were saying similar things about Grant not being good enough last season. Then he came into the side this season and we were all raving about him, and now he's barely been played and we are back to him not being quite good enough.

    Like many players he will only improve, or develop consistency by playing games.
    He could just need the games but for some reason whenever he started he gets subbed soon after half-time and didn't grab his opportunity. I don't think it is a case of needing the games anymore because at 22 I think he will confess to himself that his career is at a cross-roads. Time is ticking when the midfield position is competitive and a player his same age at the club has played 50+ senior games and younger players like Burke/Walker are in demand by minimum L1 clubs on loan.

    I hope he gets the opportunity though because he should at least be starting the last 3 games to see where we stand with him but football is a tough environment and positions in a squad are limited.

    Last edited by BryanRoy; 19-04-16 at 12:41.

  6. #55
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    Default Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post

    He could just need the games but for some reason whenever he started he gets subbed soon after half-time and didn't grab his opportunity. I don't think it is a case of needing the games anymore because at 22 I think he will confess to himself that his career is at a cross-roads. Time is ticking when the midfield position is competitive and a player his same age at the club has played 50+ senior games and younger players like Burke/Walker are in demand by minimum L1 clubs on loan.

    I hope he gets the opportunity though because he should at least be starting the last 3 games to see where we stand with him but football is a tough environment and positions in a squad are limited.
    Very good points.

    He's only started 3 games though and neither Walker or Burke have really grabbed their chances either. They are obviously younger but Grants been stuck in a club who've chronically mismanaged the transition between the youth setup and first team for years.

    3 starts isn't many at all, and I don't think they were all one after another to give him a run (unless they were) which is what these younger players need to get settled at this level. Just throwing them in for 10 minutes here, or the occasional start there doesn't let them get used to playing with this first team or at the pace of the championship.

    The teams been terrible this season and so it's no surprise that young players aren't coming in and excelling from the off. It's got to be tough going into a struggling team, with low morale, a manager fixated on every player defending and a fanbase in meltdown and who will howl if you misplace one pass. Also the academy itself has changed personnel and direction several times over the last couple of years so they've had to deal with that.

    I think our academy prospects are suffering from years of problems at the club so may longer to truly kick on than we'd maybe expect.

    Grant is very talented and hopefully he'll get more chances between now and the end of the season and really begin to progress. If not then the new manager will probably ship him out anyway but I do believe there's a lot of potential there that a club like ours is crying out to do something with.

    At least until the whole structure is ripped up and started again.

    Last edited by incapable hulk; 19-04-16 at 13:34.

  7. #56
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Jorge Grant = Matt Thornhill

    Whatever happened to him?

    The very small snippets I have seen of him he looks okay but perhaps at 22 he needs to be showing a bit more.


  8. #57
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    He can only show a bit more by playing a bit more.


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  9. #58
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Yeah, he needs to be loaned out to a League One club. Play a full season of proper football and then come back.


  10. #59
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    After leaving the ground last night and walking under the Trent End stand we noticed Mancienne and Grant walking amonst the Forest fans. Some guy shouts over something along the lines of "Jorge you should be out on the pitch" to which he turns around with a big smile on his face and nods.


  11. #60
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Trickie Trees View Post
    Jorge Grant = Matt Thornhill

    Whatever happened to him?

    The very small snippets I have seen of him he looks okay but perhaps at 22 he needs to be showing a bit more.
    Thornhill is playing for Shaw Lane Aquaforce FC

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  12. #61

    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Why has he been completely ignored lately? I thought he showed signs of promise whenever he played.


  13. #62

    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    That is exactly it RR. Having good flicks and tricks can only take you so far. The end product has been a huge issue for him and at nearly 22 he needs to be dominating the u21 league but he doesn't.



    The evidence when Burke/Walker is pulled from the u21 team is far more evident than Grant and he is 3/4 years older than them. They have longer contracts and have international caps. Think your comment is meant to be the other way around.



    He could just need the games but for some reason whenever he started he gets subbed soon after half-time and didn't grab his opportunity. I don't think it is a case of needing the games anymore because at 22 I think he will confess to himself that his career is at a cross-roads. Time is ticking when the midfield position is competitive and a player his same age at the club has played 50+ senior games and younger players like Burke/Walker are in demand by minimum L1 clubs on loan.

    I hope he gets the opportunity though because he should at least be starting the last 3 games to see where we stand with him but football is a tough environment and positions in a squad are limited.
    For me Dougie has loaned out a young player who scored 9 in 13, another who's done great in a top European League, he could have played Osborn more early season but chose to bring in a load of wank CM loans, and he's played the likes of Akpom ahead of Walker & Grant last season when they needed game time.

    It's a miracle Burke has flourised as much as he has with Freedman in charge, and I pesonally tink that Grant's age is a red herring, as he hasn't been given anywhere near the amount of game time or run in the side a decent manager would have given him.

    Let's not forget the God-awful way he's been played too, having "defend, defend, defend" the mindset throughout the team.

    As Hulk says 3 starts, for me Grants worth sticking with. The most exciting part of the season still remains watching our young crop get at Charlton.

    “All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.”

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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-Hasawi View Post
    For me Dougie has loaned out a young player who scored 9 in 13, another who's done great in a top European League, he could have played Osborn more early season but chose to bring in a load of wank CM loans, and he's played the likes of Akpom ahead of Walker & Grant last season when they needed game time.

    It's a miracle Burke has flourised as much as he has with Freedman in charge, and I pesonally tink that Grant's age is a red herring, as he hasn't been given anywhere near the amount of game time or run in the side a decent manager would have given him.

    Let's not forget the God-awful way he's been played too, having "defend, defend, defend" the mindset throughout the team.

    As Hulk says 3 starts, for me Grants worth sticking with. The most exciting part of the season still remains watching our young crop get at Charlton.
    Osborn was ill, and then had a pretty much constant run in the side. Dougie gave more league debuts to young players than any other manager recently. I think Dougie genuinely passionately cared about playing the young players, whereas Williams seems disinterested in playing any of our youth players (which may be understandable given that he's not gonna be here long).

    I do agree about the Akpom situation at the end of last season though, that never worked out.

    With Grant I get the feeling it won't work out and he'll be gone soon, but that's only based on his age and the very brief amount I've seen of him. Not sure he contributes any less than someone like Tesche though. Would like to see him start these last few games.


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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-Hasawi View Post
    For me Dougie has loaned out a young player who scored 9 in 13, another who's done great in a top European League, he could have played Osborn more early season but chose to bring in a load of wank CM loans, and he's played the likes of Akpom ahead of Walker & Grant last season when they needed game time.

    It's a miracle Burke has flourised as much as he has with Freedman in charge, and I pesonally tink that Grant's age is a red herring, as he hasn't been given anywhere near the amount of game time or run in the side a decent manager would have given him.

    Let's not forget the God-awful way he's been played too, having "defend, defend, defend" the mindset throughout the team.

    As Hulk says 3 starts, for me Grants worth sticking with. The most exciting part of the season still remains watching our young crop get at Charlton.
    Who is the young player with 9 in 13?

    You keep saying this about Osborn not getting picked. It is then pointed out time and gain that he was ill and lost a lot of weight. So it took him time to get his fitness levels up and that was the reason that he was not in the team. When he was fit he was picked every game. But you choose to ignore this because it doesn’t suit your argument.

    As for Walker he has not delivered when he has had a chance in the first team. That is the simple fact. He played at the end of last season and the start of this and he looked out of his depth. He has potential, nothing more. If he was tearing the place up, do you really think he wouldn’t have been playing? As for it all being the managers fault. What about the player making the decision impossible for the manager by scoring or doing very well when he gets the chance. I doubt very much if he would get a regular start upfront for any championship side. Now if you don’t agree then name me the sides and if what I say is right then how should we be playing him. He has now went on loan to Burton and has been on the bench. I think you have this belief that because he is our young player he must be good. All I say is just be good.

    I think someone said that a comment was directed at Grant along the lines of you should be playing… again don’t just nod your head make it impossible for the manager to leave you out. Again top quality midfield players in the main are first team regulars by the time they reach 22. They’re exceptions to every rule but sometimes the player really needs to want it. If he doesn’t have a strong mentality he will not make a top player. If Grant or Walker are going to be less than that, then it is better they left now so that we can bring players through that can make that step up. We all want these young players to do well but it has to come from them in the end. Just deliver then you can’t be left out. Dele Alli is an example of that.


  16. #65
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    I think Dougie used young players to drive home his "woe is me" approach to football management.

    BD did something similar, Adam Newbold and Mark Byrne ring any bells? (I might have their names wrong!)


  17. #66
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-Hasawi View Post
    For me Dougie has loaned out a young player who scored 9 in 13, another who's done great in a top European League, he could have played Osborn more early season but chose to bring in a load of wank CM loans......
    Benny suffered a severe case of Campolybactor before the start of the season Alf, resulting in him losing almost two stones in weight.


  18. #67
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fox View Post
    Who is the young player with 9 in 13?

    You keep saying this about Osborn not getting picked. It is then pointed out time and gain that he was ill and lost a lot of weight. So it took him time to get his fitness levels up and that was the reason that he was not in the team. When he was fit he was picked every game. But you choose to ignore this because it doesn’t suit your argument.

    As for Walker he has not delivered when he has had a chance in the first team. That is the simple fact. He played at the end of last season and the start of this and he looked out of his depth. He has potential, nothing more. If he was tearing the place up, do you really think he wouldn’t have been playing? As for it all being the managers fault. What about the player making the decision impossible for the manager by scoring or doing very well when he gets the chance. I doubt very much if he would get a regular start upfront for any championship side. Now if you don’t agree then name me the sides and if what I say is right then how should we be playing him. He has now went on loan to Burton and has been on the bench. I think you have this belief that because he is our young player he must be good. All I say is just be good.

    I think someone said that a comment was directed at Grant along the lines of you should be playing… again don’t just nod your head make it impossible for the manager to leave you out. Again top quality midfield players in the main are first team regulars by the time they reach 22. They’re exceptions to every rule but sometimes the player really needs to want it. If he doesn’t have a strong mentality he will not make a top player. If Grant or Walker are going to be less than that, then it is better they left now so that we can bring players through that can make that step up. We all want these young players to do well but it has to come from them in the end. Just deliver then you can’t be left out. Dele Alli is an example of that.
    Good post and I've said similar previously.

    It's a constant on here that our youth players are totally overrated. I understand people want home grown players in the team, but all too often blind hope and denial seem to get in the way of a more objective assessment of a player. It's usually obvious when a player is ready and/or has a future at this level (or above) because the player takes his chance when it's given - Osborn and Burke being recent examples.

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  19. #68
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel View Post
    I think Dougie used young players to drive home his "woe is me" approach to football management.

    BD did something similar, Adam Newbold and Mark Byrne ring any bells? (I might have their names wrong!)
    No you are correct on both.

    And you can add full back Joe Heath to the list also.

    "It is better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep"

  20. #69
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Otis Redd'un View Post
    Benny suffered a severe case of Campolybactor before the start of the season
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermz View Post
    Osborn was ill, and then had a pretty much constant run in the side.
    Or in other words, Osborn had the runs constantly, then he had a constant run
    in the side.

    Last edited by Red Unity; 20-04-16 at 20:32.

  21. #70

    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermz View Post
    Osborn was ill, and then had a pretty much constant run in the side. Dougie gave more league debuts to young players than any other manager recently. I think Dougie genuinely passionately cared about playing the young players, whereas Williams seems disinterested in playing any of our youth players (which may be understandable given that he's not gonna be here long).

    I do agree about the Akpom situation at the end of last season though, that never worked out.

    With Grant I get the feeling it won't work out and he'll be gone soon, but that's only based on his age and the very brief amount I've seen of him. Not sure he contributes any less than someone like Tesche though. Would like to see him start these last few games.
    Fair play with Osborn, but I still think Dougie squandered our own young optio

    Grant's had 3 starts and impressed me every time. Time will tell, but I personally think he'll be a solid Championship player at least in a year or so. He'd have got there earlier had Dougie played him more last year IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fox View Post
    Who is the young player with 9 in 13?

    You keep saying this about Osborn not getting picked. It is then pointed out time and gain that he was ill and lost a lot of weight. So it took him time to get his fitness levels up and that was the reason that he was not in the team. When he was fit he was picked every game. But you choose to ignore this because it doesn’t suit your argument.

    As for Walker he has not delivered when he has had a chance in the first team. That is the simple fact. He played at the end of last season and the start of this and he looked out of his depth. He has potential, nothing more. If he was tearing the place up, do you really think he wouldn’t have been playing? As for it all being the managers fault. What about the player making the decision impossible for the manager by scoring or doing very well when he gets the chance. I doubt very much if he would get a regular start upfront for any championship side. Now if you don’t agree then name me the sides and if what I say is right then how should we be playing him. He has now went on loan to Burton and has been on the bench. I think you have this belief that because he is our young player he must be good. All I say is just be good.

    I think someone said that a comment was directed at Grant along the lines of you should be playing… again don’t just nod your head make it impossible for the manager to leave you out. Again top quality midfield players in the main are first team regulars by the time they reach 22. They’re exceptions to every rule but sometimes the player really needs to want it. If he doesn’t have a strong mentality he will not make a top player. If Grant or Walker are going to be less than that, then it is better they left now so that we can bring players through that can make that step up. We all want these young players to do well but it has to come from them in the end. Just deliver then you can’t be left out. Dele Alli is an example of that.
    Jamie Paterson. Scored more goals in 13 games than any players Dougie bought to the club have in an entire season.

    Walker hasn't delivered, but I'm not sure how playing Akpom ahead of him when we had nothing to play for was meant to help with that. It proved not to.

    And sorry but that's utter garbage mate, there's more than just a few exceptions. Marco Materazzi made his Deria A debut aged 24, Drogba was a no-one at Guingamp aged 25, Ricky Lambertin League one aged 29, Fabio Grosso made his Serie A debut in 2001 at the age of 24, and in 2004, aged 27, he returned to Serie B. He was promoted from Serie B at the age of 28 and went on to win 48 caps for Italy. Luca Toni got his first taste of Serie A football at the age of 23 but found himself back in Serie B with Palermo at the age of 26. they are just a few examples.

    One thing Grant has got is a good mentality, have you actually watched him play? His body language and head are bang on. he just needs a bit more physical development and a run in the side, not 3 bloody starts.

    Honestly some of you are flat out nutballs to be writing a 22 y/o off after 3 starts. He may not make it, but to see that an age & amount of chances as which to write someone off? Utterly mental.

    Last edited by Alf-ugginblowupyourbakery; 20-04-16 at 20:56.

  22. #71
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by psychoDrama View Post
    Or in other words, Osborn had the runs constantly, then he had a constant run
    in the side.
    Even better with your "same shit, different day" signature...


  23. #72
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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Alf-Hasawi View Post
    Fair play with Osborn, but I still think Dougie squandered our own young optio

    Grant's had 3 starts and impressed me every time. Time will tell, but I personally think he'll be a solid Championship player at least in a year or so. He'd have got there earlier had Dougie played him more last year IMO.



    Jamie Paterson. Scored more goals in 13 games than any players Dougie bought to the club have in an entire season.

    Walker hasn't delivered, but I'm not sure how playing Akpom ahead of him when we had nothing to play for was meant to help with that. It proved not to.

    And sorry but that's utter garbage mate, there's more than just a few exceptions. Marco Materazzi made his Deria A debut aged 24, Drogba was a no-one at Guingamp aged 25, Ricky Lambertin League one aged 29, Fabio Grosso made his Serie A debut in 2001 at the age of 24, and in 2004, aged 27, he returned to Serie B. He was promoted from Serie B at the age of 28 and went on to win 48 caps for Italy. Luca Toni got his first taste of Serie A football at the age of 23 but found himself back in Serie B with Palermo at the age of 26. they are just a few examples.

    One thing Grant has got is a good mentality, have you actually watched him play? His body language and head are bang on. he just needs a bit more physical development and a run in the side, not 3 bloody starts.

    Honestly some of you are flat out nutballs to be writing a 22 y/o off after 3 starts. He may not make it, but to see that an age & amount of chances as which to write someone off? Utterly mental.
    The thing is that for whatever reason those players were around teams but for some reason didn't make it. Lambert started off at Liverpool, and then went down the divisions for first team football as a lot do, and worked his way back up.

    You could look at Jamie Vardy who started off at Sheffield Weds before being released and having to play non league. I think Garath McCleary was on Oxford's books as well before having to play for Bromley. It's quite common for players to have to drop down.

    As for Materazzi, he played in mainly Serie B at Perugia before going to play for Everton in 1998-9 at the age of 25, sooner than his Serie A debut, so you are fiddling stats a bit there.

    Grant is a technically good player, but he has had the extreme disadvantage of up until joining us having not been a professional. He is several years behind even Osborn in his physical development as a pro, because Osborn has been with the club for longer and from a younger age. In the midfield roles you do need some physical presence to use your talent or else you'll simply get pushed off the ball all the time so it won't matter what you could theoretically do with it, and the championship is still quite a physical division.

    You look at someone like Ollie Burke and Antonio and they do at least not have this physical disadvantage. He needs to strengthen up before he will make it. There are very few players who are physically weak - even the small players have something else.


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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
    Good post and I've said similar previously.

    It's a constant on here that our youth players are totally overrated. I understand people want home grown players in the team, but all too often blind hope and denial seem to get in the way of a more objective assessment of a player. It's usually obvious when a player is ready and/or has a future at this level (or above) because the player takes his chance when it's given - Osborn and Burke being recent examples.
    Well I haven't seen Tesche have a good game and haven't seen grant do much wrong. I'd imagine Tesche is on at least 10 times what grant is on so where's the sense in that..


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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    To add to that when I watched walker earlier this season he looked like a decent player, Millwall at home he was everywhere on his own up front.. I get the feeling he was tossed to one side and has suffered ever since. Succesive managers at this club have used young players to prove a point rather than actually trying to give them a fair chance. Fair play to benny Osborn he's had to battle through a load of shit to become our most consistent performer and people still give him a hard time!


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    Default Re: Jorge Grant

    Sorry but some players just don't make it at a certain time. As much as we'd all love Tyler Walker to succeed, he hasn't quite got the physicality to be a striker currently. He spent all game warming up on Tuesday, just before he was due to come on, Burton were knocking on the door, but the physicality and rough and tumble of wigans defence changed Clough's mind and he never bought him on. Could it be the same for Grant?


 

 

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