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Thread: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

      
  1. #1
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    Default FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    surely a blind man can see that the way that QPR have been allowed to flout the FFP rules compared to all the other teams (whether penalised or not) has to be addressed. they are certainly taking an advantage of those already under an embargo. I just cant see how it can be allowed to continue.....MADNESS !


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    The whole rule is madness. Double standards, elitism and lack of common sense all the way through the rule. Even UEFA know it's cobblers, and are gradually stopping it. Hopefully the football league see sense and do the same.

    You can't enforce rules like this when the divide financially is so big.

    Alternative: Make owners deposit money into the club to cover losses. A simple rule that stops the Portsmouth situation happening, instead of all this cobblers currently in place.

    The thing the rule tries to achieve is to make every club self-sustainable, but it's not going to happen.


  4. #3
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodred View Post
    surely a blind man can see that the way that QPR have been allowed to flout the FFP rules compared to all the other teams (
    Explain


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    I too don't understand how QPR are getting around the rules. They had Sandro playing for them last season who did not have a work permit. What would have happened if they had finished 4th from bottom and escaped relegation. They are supposedly looking at a huge fine but have still signed 4 players including Mackie. I just don't understand FFP and I don't think many do.


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Fail View Post
    Explain
    ffp is intended to make clubs spend within their means. forest and others are under a transfer embargo for breaching these rules. qpr are 200 million in debt but escape an embargo because they have had a season away from the championship. they have a massive fine due which if not paid will mean they cannot return to the football league. yet they are still allowed to sign players at greater wages than those allowed if under an embargo. i know it COULD come back to haunt them in the future. but what is your guess as to the final outcome....another unfair promotion and the stupid merry go round starts all over again !


  7. #6
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    London club = no punishment.

    Only clubs to be penalised under FFP will be leeds blackburn and forest, mark my words


  8. #7
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Does anybody really understand this FFP, as it's clear there's enough of us totally confused?


  9. #8

    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodred View Post
    qpr are 200 million in debt but escape an embargo because they have had a season away from the championship.
    FFP is judged on annual revenues vs losses, not outstanding debts. You could have a debt the size of Greece, but if you've spent the previous year in the Premier League, you'll pass FFP.

    They should still have to pay the fine from their losses in previous seasons in the Championship, but why should they have a transfer embargo now?


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    My main issue with FFP is that neither players or their agents appear to be buying into it. It's all well and good the Football League expecting its members to break even, but with players demanding ever increasing salaries? No chance.


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    My main issue with FFP is that neither players or their agents appear to be buying into it. It's all well and good the Football League expecting its members to break even, but with players demanding ever increasing salaries? No chance.
    They could demand all they want if the clubs unilaterally refused to pay it - there's only 24 parties need to agree. Less, in fact, as those willing to gamble indefinitely can only sign so many. But then the clubs still bet the farm and offer the wages. And the fans still pay into the clubs. And again it comes down to us.


  12. #11
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Fail View Post
    They could demand all they want if the clubs unilaterally refused to pay it - there's only 24 parties need to agree. Less, in fact, as those willing to gamble indefinitely can only sign so many. But then the clubs still bet the farm and offer the wages. And the fans still pay into the clubs. And again it comes down to us.


    I can't see them capping it, I do think that having a squad with at least 5/6 England players would however force Clubs to give the academy's a chance to bring through Youth/talent and improve the National team.


  13. #12
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Foster View Post
    London club = no punishment.

    Only clubs to be penalised under FFP will be leeds blackburn and forest, mark my words

    Have had exactly the same thing said on my club's forum.

    For the record I think FFP is wrong hwver well intentioned it was sold, at the end of the day private businesses should be allowed to invest as they see fit.

    That said, once the rules are agreed by vote as they were, then ALL member clubs should abide by them or suffer the consequences a la Blackburn, Leeds and yourselves.

    QPR were a bit different in so much as according to the way that FFP works, clubs in their first season down from the prem are immune from embargoes and I believe other sanctions that only come into force once embarking on the second season in the championship.


    However that does not include racking up substantial losses, they are still required to be within certain parameters the same as everybody else. Apparently their losses last time in this division were 60 million which meant by the letter of the law of FFP they were in line for a fifty odd million fine. As we all know they basically stuck their two fingers up at the league (and other clubs who abided by the rules including Forest who abided by the rule by suffering the consequences) and hoped their mega bucks spending would ensure they didn't have to darken the league's door again as they embarked on their premiership dream. Now that hasn't worked out, they're using the legal system allegdly to challenge the league's right to fine them where as I beleiev it is merely a delaying tactic as the league is unable to enforce any action on them whilst the legal process is proceeding which will take a damn sight longer than a football season, meantime they again flout the rules agreed to by member clubs to try and buy yet another promotion and all that lovely money.


    They have now retrospectively written off I believe about 50 million of the losses ran up meaning that they can now show in the accounts again retrospectively that they only lost 10 million that season and so could argue for a mere 5/6 million fine, small potatoes when promotion gurantess 160 million.

    As said at the beginning, I don't believe in FFP however when memebr clubs vote on a rule that is passed by a majority then all clubs should abide by thsoe rules and seek to challenge them if they strongly disagree through the proper channels, legal or otherwise. What QPR have done is tried to circumvent the rules and gain an advantage when other clubs including Forest and Leeds who even though overspending have only done so marginally in comparison, and that advantage has already won them one promotion and at least 4 years of parachute money probably worth in excess of 150 million but not only that, at the expense of other clubs. I know you guys aren't exactly fond of Derby but putting that aside for a moment had that been your team in the final against QPR wouldn't you feel you had a right at least morally to sue them for loss f earnings.

    OK I'll step away from the Derby thing but allegiances aside I do think the point is valid and surprised I've not seen them making more of an issue out of it like Sheffield United did when West Ham cheated them into relegation several years back for which remember they did receive substantial compensation.

    Alright I've rattled on enough, for me you can't have individual clubs deciding which rules they will or won't follow, it's that simple and QPR should have the book thrown at them, even to the threat of expulsion from the league.
    However the sooner FFP is done away with or severely modified the better. The suggestion that owners should deposit funds into a club if they want to massively spend to get success seems like a great idea to me. Afterall what we all want is investment, but not if it puts our club's future in jeopardy, this would certainly solve that, I'm just not sure that club's or rather owners of club's won't be able to have their legal experts make that a non starter too.
    I do genuinely worry that some big city clubs could cease to exist with the levels of debt they are carrying which in some cases are ridiculous and wouldn't fly in the real world. People use pompey as a benchmark for how bad it can get but I can honestly see someone like QPR/Bolton/Ipswich going out of business and some phoenix club in it's memeory starting out 5 divisions below conference if they're lucky.

    I look at what happened to your previous owner (sorry name escapes me) fortunately he left you well provided for (I beleieve) but what happens if the Ipswich owner keels over, is anyone prepared for that? These clubs have debts ranging from 130-200 million, it's ludicrous, anyhoo sorry to go on.


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    apologies for shoddy typos, struggle a bit with your forum format.


  15. #14
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Burns View Post
    Have had exactly the same thing said on my club's forum.

    For the record I think FFP is wrong hwver well intentioned it was sold, at the end of the day private businesses should be allowed to invest as they see fit.

    That said, once the rules are agreed by vote as they were, then ALL member clubs should abide by them or suffer the consequences a la Blackburn, Leeds and yourselves.

    QPR were a bit different in so much as according to the way that FFP works, clubs in their first season down from the prem are immune from embargoes and I believe other sanctions that only come into force once embarking on the second season in the championship.


    However that does not include racking up substantial losses, they are still required to be within certain parameters the same as everybody else. Apparently their losses last time in this division were 60 million which meant by the letter of the law of FFP they were in line for a fifty odd million fine. As we all know they basically stuck their two fingers up at the league (and other clubs who abided by the rules including Forest who abided by the rule by suffering the consequences) and hoped their mega bucks spending would ensure they didn't have to darken the league's door again as they embarked on their premiership dream. Now that hasn't worked out, they're using the legal system allegdly to challenge the league's right to fine them where as I beleiev it is merely a delaying tactic as the league is unable to enforce any action on them whilst the legal process is proceeding which will take a damn sight longer than a football season, meantime they again flout the rules agreed to by member clubs to try and buy yet another promotion and all that lovely money.


    They have now retrospectively written off I believe about 50 million of the losses ran up meaning that they can now show in the accounts again retrospectively that they only lost 10 million that season and so could argue for a mere 5/6 million fine, small potatoes when promotion gurantess 160 million.

    As said at the beginning, I don't believe in FFP however when memebr clubs vote on a rule that is passed by a majority then all clubs should abide by thsoe rules and seek to challenge them if they strongly disagree through the proper channels, legal or otherwise. What QPR have done is tried to circumvent the rules and gain an advantage when other clubs including Forest and Leeds who even though overspending have only done so marginally in comparison, and that advantage has already won them one promotion and at least 4 years of parachute money probably worth in excess of 150 million but not only that, at the expense of other clubs. I know you guys aren't exactly fond of Derby but putting that aside for a moment had that been your team in the final against QPR wouldn't you feel you had a right at least morally to sue them for loss f earnings.

    OK I'll step away from the Derby thing but allegiances aside I do think the point is valid and surprised I've not seen them making more of an issue out of it like Sheffield United did when West Ham cheated them into relegation several years back for which remember they did receive substantial compensation.

    Alright I've rattled on enough, for me you can't have individual clubs deciding which rules they will or won't follow, it's that simple and QPR should have the book thrown at them, even to the threat of expulsion from the league.
    However the sooner FFP is done away with or severely modified the better. The suggestion that owners should deposit funds into a club if they want to massively spend to get success seems like a great idea to me. Afterall what we all want is investment, but not if it puts our club's future in jeopardy, this would certainly solve that, I'm just not sure that club's or rather owners of club's won't be able to have their legal experts make that a non starter too.
    I do genuinely worry that some big city clubs could cease to exist with the levels of debt they are carrying which in some cases are ridiculous and wouldn't fly in the real world. People use pompey as a benchmark for how bad it can get but I can honestly see someone like QPR/Bolton/Ipswich going out of business and some phoenix club in it's memeory starting out 5 divisions below conference if they're lucky.

    I look at what happened to your previous owner (sorry name escapes me) fortunately he left you well provided for (I beleieve) but what happens if the Ipswich owner keels over, is anyone prepared for that? These clubs have debts ranging from 130-200 million, it's ludicrous, anyhoo sorry to go on.
    Its alright to "go on" if you make a good post which it is..... Minus the Derby bit obviously


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us



    in the 9 posts I've made before this one I've mentioned Derby and Leicester as reference points, surprised you lot haven't lynched me.


    I believe from reading on here that Forest's debt is around the 50 million mark which is fine so long as Fawaz bankrolls you or even services the debt and even in a worst case scenario shtf type of situation, I think it's salvageable and not beyond someone willing to take the debt on, but who other than a Bolton or QPR fan would take on their debts and how many multi millionaire fans have they each got?

    From reading around other forums I see my club (Birmingham) often referred to as a 'basket case' and 'financially stricken' when we're actually less than 5 million in debt and one of the lowest loss making club's in the championship, all be it we had to sell off every player worth anything from the prem years in order to achieve that before the parachute money ran out. Our problem has been one of cashflow with no banking facility and our owner in jail but hopefully the former has now been resolved and the latter is only a matter of time before he's history yet on several occasions in the last 2 years we've come mighty close to administration which would almost certainly have seen us relegated with the accompanying points deductions.

    It does concentrate the mind and make you realise how precarious football club's finances are when even at it's worst we had less than 40 million in debt, 48 million in parachute money and yet still had to sell everyone to avoid going under.


  17. #16
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Burns View Post


    in the 9 posts I've made before this one I've mentioned Derby and Leicester as reference points, surprised you lot haven't lynched me.


    I believe from reading on here that Forest's debt is around the 50 million mark which is fine so long as Fawaz bankrolls you or even services the debt and even in a worst case scenario shtf type of situation, I think it's salvageable and not beyond someone willing to take the debt on, but who other than a Bolton or QPR fan would take on their debts and how many multi millionaire fans have they each got?

    From reading around other forums I see my club (Birmingham) often referred to as a 'basket case' and 'financially stricken' when we're actually less than 5 million in debt and one of the lowest loss making club's in the championship, all be it we had to sell off every player worth anything from the prem years in order to achieve that before the parachute money ran out. Our problem has been one of cashflow with no banking facility and our owner in jail but hopefully the former has now been resolved and the latter is only a matter of time before he's history yet on several occasions in the last 2 years we've come mighty close to administration which would almost certainly have seen us relegated with the accompanying points deductions.

    It does concentrate the mind and make you realise how precarious football club's finances are when even at it's worst we had less than 40 million in debt, 48 million in parachute money and yet still had to sell everyone to avoid going under.


    Thanks for the posts, not sure I still fully understand FFP, except it appears many loop holes
    deem available.

    P.S On a separate note was not happy with the 4th official last season, other than that thanks again for a very interesting read.


  18. #17

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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    There are certainly holes in FFP regulations, but the very fact that only 3 clubs (plus QPR) have failed to comply with the regulations, says a lot. I wouldn't object to us being so far from complying, if Fawaz was 'investing' money in buying new players, but he isn't; the vast majority of what is being overspent is wages, which is a very dangerous situation. If Fawaz walks away, we are utterly screwed, and will end up in administration, lose most of our players, and be in a far worse situation than we are now. It's absolutely right that clubs should be forced to have wage bills and other running costs that the CLUB can afford, not the OWNER.

    Perhaps one area where FFP regulations could be improved would be to exclude 'incidental costs' from the assessment. This would mean that 1 off fees, like transfer fees, agent fees, signing on fees, would not affect whether a club is in breach or not. They already do this for a number of areas, like the academy, and building new stadiums/stands.


  19. #18
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Wages are the one horrid redeeming feature in everything that's wrong with football. Until that's brought under control the same shit will keep happening.


  20. #19
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    QPR lose treble the amount we do but go up so it's OK. They get relegated back to the league they cheated to get out of, refuse to pay the fine that's levied by the football league and somehow aren't hit with an embargo until they do. Where is the justice with this? Where's the justice that UEFA are relaxing the FFP rules, but only for the elite? It's so obviously crooked that it makes you sick.

    Let's not forget the criminally unfair parachute payments too.


  21. #20

    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    I don't understand why we aren't getting together with Leeds & Blackburn and getting this overturned. We've been hit with rescritions that means we can't be competitive whilst others who have more debt etc are seemingly allowed to carry on as normal. Where is the fair play in that?


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymondo Ponte' View Post
    Wages are the one horrid redeeming feature in everything that's wrong with football. Until that's brought under control the same shit will keep happening.
    Problem is Raymondo that won't happen, as players and their grasping agents hold all the cards.

    Players know - especially at Championship level - they can gouge clubs for huge wages as those clubs are absolutely desperate to get at the riches of the Premier League.

    What's caused the problem is the huge gulf in income between the top two divisions. That disparity means that clubs are so desperate to get up to the millions of the Premier League, they will gamble, throwing ludicrous money at average players in a desperate attempt to gain promotion.

    This means the players (and their agents!) dictate the terms and the clubs find that they are essentially held to ransom.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    — Joe Strummer

  23. #22
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Burns View Post

    in the 9 posts I've made before this one I've mentioned Derby and Leicester as reference points, surprised you lot haven't lynched me.
    You have to be a Forest manager/player to qualify for that honour.

    And even then we usually wait until we're top 6 or are progressing positively off the pitch.


  24. #23
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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Can we not challenge ffp, and during the court proceedings carry on signing players? Not that I want us to, we deserve to be in this mess because we've gambled for promotion every season


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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Found this today which some of you may find interesting http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...832._/?ref=mac

    By the last few lines

    But, after FFP rules were changed in November, the maximum loss permitted for the new season – 2015-16 – will rise to £13m.


    I would imagine worst case scenario by next Summer you'll be out of the embargo, possibly by January if cuts to wage bill can show projected losses falling under from how I read it.

    The unfairness of it stinks though, even if QPR lose their legal claim should they get promoted they can again stick their two fingers up until they get relegated again by which time they'll have raked in well over 200 million from prem monies. OK it hasn't helped in terms of them being massively in debt but that's their look out because of how they are run. I don't want to see any club go to the wall, but I'd love it if they got relegated again, their manipulation of the rules is anything but fair play and my club isn't really even affected as we haven't been challenging and are not likely to this season either but it's just wrong. If Forest finish 7th under an embargo whilst they finish top 6 and go up, where's the 'fairness' and who knows how financially that could have affected Forest's future?

    I know there's different criteria because f it being their first season down and getting promoted straight away but I think yourselves and Blackburn have every right to feel aggrieved.


  26. #25

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    Default Re: FFP - QPR and the rest of us

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Burns View Post
    Found this today which some of you may find interesting http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...832._/?ref=mac

    By the last few lines

    But, after FFP rules were changed in November, the maximum loss permitted for the new season – 2015-16 – will rise to £13m.


    I would imagine worst case scenario by next Summer you'll be out of the embargo, possibly by January if cuts to wage bill can show projected losses falling under from how I read it.

    The unfairness of it stinks though, even if QPR lose their legal claim should they get promoted they can again stick their two fingers up until they get relegated again by which time they'll have raked in well over 200 million from prem monies. OK it hasn't helped in terms of them being massively in debt but that's their look out because of how they are run. I don't want to see any club go to the wall, but I'd love it if they got relegated again, their manipulation of the rules is anything but fair play and my club isn't really even affected as we haven't been challenging and are not likely to this season either but it's just wrong. If Forest finish 7th under an embargo whilst they finish top 6 and go up, where's the 'fairness' and who knows how financially that could have affected Forest's future?

    I know there's different criteria because f it being their first season down and getting promoted straight away but I think yourselves and Blackburn have every right to feel aggrieved.
    The best case scenario is us being out of embargo. We are way away from meeting even £13m in losses.

    The trouble is, QPR have actually breached a different rule of FFP regulations than all of the other clubs you mentioned. Whereas QPR put a load of money into the club to 'clear debts' that were historical (before FFP regs I think), we, Blackburn and Leeds, all overspent, thus running up more debt. It may seem like they breached the debt rules as well, by buying new players etc., but parachute payments happily (for them) got them through that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Burns View Post
    If Forest finish 7th under an embargo whilst they finish top 6 and go up, where's the 'fairness' and who knows how financially that could have affected Forest's future?
    That's a fair comment, but what if a team who actually complies with FFP regulations finish 7th and go up, after Forest challenged it? They would have a far greater grievance.


 

 

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