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View Poll Results: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?

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  1. #10626
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Which is why, after voting Leave and fully understanding the Red Lines the EU have, I was expecting what was to become known as a Hard Brexit. One cannot blame the EU for this, the 27 states of the EU, are prepared to accept the good and bad which go with this, the Referendum voted to reject it. Democracy and free choice has been ignored, hence the pot mess we now find ourselves in.
    A hard Brexit, with no trading deal between the U.K. and its largest trading partner, and falling back onto WTO rules, has the potential to wreck the U.K. economy for years.

    That will have a far more severe effect on the working class, on the low-skilled, than anyone else.

    That’s why it’s a really, really, bad idea.

    „The revolution will inevitably awaken in the British working class the deepest passions which have been diverted along artificial channels with the aid of football.“

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  3. #10627
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Rage Against The Machine, 1

    „Pissweasel“ Nigel Farage, 0

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  4. #10628
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    I do agree with brexiteers that a so called hard brexit is the only one that makes sense.
    They want all our laws and regulations set by parliament and they want an end to free movement.
    The thing is, they claimed we can have that and still enjoy all the trading benefits of being members:

    Having your cake and eating it.

    Was nonsense before the ref and it's nonsense now. Yes we can have full brexit if we want it but it won't be anything like what was promised by the con artists who led the leave campaign. It'll be grim.

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  5. #10629
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post
    A hard Brexit, with no trading deal between the U.K. and its largest trading partner, and falling back onto WTO rules, has the potential to wreck the U.K. economy for years.

    That will have a far more severe effect on the working class, on the low-skilled, than anyone else.

    That’s why it’s a really, really, bad idea.
    The EU is our biggest trading partner at the moment, but is this because we have wonderful deals or that over the years we have become more and more embroiled in it's restrictive, protectionist and snail paced economies, denied the oppotunity to seek new markets in the emerging world economies. At the moment we have a nightmare scenario of taking EU rules, EU restrictions without any representation. Denied oppotunities to seek new markets and reap the rewards of joining the world economies, we are denied the benifit of Brexit.

    Last edited by smithy; 11-07-18 at 22:33.

  6. #10630
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Troll alert


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  7. #10631
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    If I am Trolling, at least have a look at recent Youth Unemployment figures in the EU and tell me it's working for the young.


  8. #10632
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    The EU is our biggest trading partner at the moment, but is this because we have wonderful deals or that over the years we have become more and more embroiled in it's restrictive, protectionist and snail paced economies, denied the oppotunity to seek new markets in the emerging world economies. At the moment we have a nightmare scenario of taking EU rules, EU restrictions without any representation. Denied oppotunities to seek new markets and reap the rewards of joining the world economies, we are denied the benifit of Brexit.
    https://www.parcelhero.com/blog/news...cost-of-brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    If I am Trolling, at least have a look at recent Youth Unemployment figures in the EU and tell me it's working for the young.
    The varying figures are down to a combination of national policies and structural changes in the economy (a global shift, btw). But lets compare them with the America and the BRICs, the "new markets in the emerging world economies"

    You'll notice that Germany has a youth unemployment at 8%. This is lower than the US (8.5%) .

    Or Britain, at 11.6$ is lower than China or Brazils's - both 12.8%

    The average for the EU has a whole is 15.6%, lower than both Russia at 17.6% and India at 18.2%.


    The global economy isn't working for the young. It has fuck all to do with the EU.

    Last edited by ReDias; 11-07-18 at 23:09.
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  9. #10633
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Unity View Post
    https://www.parcelhero.com/blog/news...cost-of-brexit



    The varying figures are down to a combination of national policies and structural changes in the economy (a global shift, btw). But lets compare them with the America and the BRICs, the "new markets in the emerging world economies"

    You'll notice that Germany has a youth unemployment at 8%. This is lower than the US (8.5%) .

    Or Britain, at 11.6$ is lower than China or Brazils's - both 12.8%

    The average for the EU has a whole is 15.6%, lower than both Russia at 17.6% and India at 18.2%.


    The global economy isn't working for the young. It has fuck all to do with the EU.
    Sorry the link posted is April 2016, obviously a product of the failed Project Fear, It fails to mention that most families will be forced to sell their Firstborn for Medical experiments to put food on the table, but you get the meaning. As for the other countries you have noted, we are not linked with steel hawsers to them and their economies as we are the EU countries, we wish to trade with them, not forge unbreakable economic and social links.


  10. #10634
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Sorry the link posted is April 2016, obviously a product of the failed Project Fear, It fails to mention that most families will be forced to sell their Firstborn for Medical experiments to put food on the table, but you get the meaning. As for the other countries you have noted, we are not linked with steel hawsers to them and their economies as we are the EU countries, we wish to trade with them, not forge unbreakable economic and social links.
    The cost structure of trading with BRICS hasn't changed. So when when we have your vaunted hard Brexit, we'll be trading with the emerging economies at a cost.

    It's not much a debate Sedge, where you post an assertion, I counter it with some counter evidence and then you tie your loose ends up with bombastic rhetoric.

    Do you want to discuss it, or are you just trying to get it off your chest?

    Last edited by ReDias; 12-07-18 at 08:41.

  11. #10635
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    I love it when people talk of protectionism on one hand and immigration controls on the other.

    It’s almost as if they are copying and pasting the last forty years of daily fail headlines.


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  12. #10636
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by tiffany View Post
    I love it when people talk of protectionism on one hand and immigration controls on the other.

    It’s almost as if they are copying and pasting the last forty years of daily fail headlines.


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    It's because some people have spent the last 40 years reading nothing but the Daily Fail, and believing it without question.

    I sort of get why the inhabitants of Spalding think their crop picking jobs are under threat from immigration, but why do they not see the opportunities for them to get a skill and use it at work or to live in 27 different countries? Why would people willingly close themselves off in such a drastic manner? Are we that insular as a nation? Or is it that there is a significant proportion who have never seen what the world can offer, and believe that all of us should be restricted in the same way that they restrict themselves?


  13. #10637
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by DanR View Post
    It's because some people have spent the last 40 years reading nothing but the Daily Fail, and believing it without question.

    I sort of get why the inhabitants of Spalding think their crop picking jobs are under threat from immigration, but why do they not see the opportunities for them to get a skill and use it at work or to live in 27 different countries? Why would people willingly close themselves off in such a drastic manner? Are we that insular as a nation? Or is it that there is a significant proportion who have never seen what the world can offer, and believe that all of us should be restricted in the same way that they restrict themselves?
    Island mentality Dan.

    I’ve been driving to München this morning and the topic on the way was exactly this - why are the English so insular?

    Is it because living on an island prompted that? A dissatisfaction with wanting to integrate, which then prompts a fear and resentment of immigrants?


  14. #10638
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    You can equally say the same of the Guardian readership, they often take everything written as gospel and never seek an alternative view.

    I think you over estimate the influence of the DM, but even so even the hardest Brexiteers are just citizens and voters with a point of view based on what they perceive and believe, much like everyone else.

    You either have democracy or you don't, and there is no getting around the fact that Wilson held a referendum to confirm keeping the UK in and a generation later Cameron tested the waters again. No Remainer wants to talk about Wilson fulfilling that Labour Manifesto promise, because it doesn't fit their narrative.


  15. #10639
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post
    Island mentality Dan.

    I’ve been driving to München this morning and the topic on the way was exactly this - why are the English so insular?

    Is it because living on an island prompted that? A dissatisfaction with wanting to integrate, which then prompts a fear and resentment of immigrants?
    Because Chris "The English" are not the "Germans". Thank fuck.

    Britain may indeed have an Island Mentality but equally you can say that the German obsession with order and control stems from the insecurity of having the French on one side and the Russians on the other. One of the von Moltke's even admitted as much I believe.


  16. #10640
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Us against them, innit. Bred by invasions, threat of invasion and 2 world wars were we, at some points were the last man defending "freedom" A freedom being "taken" by the Eu. Most people don't like the EU because they cannot forgive the Germans for being bastards, the French for being wimps and the others being neutral while racking in the cash.

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  17. #10641
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    You can equally say the same of the Guardian readership, they often take everything written as gospel and never seek an alternative view.

    I think you over estimate the influence of the DM, but even so even the hardest Brexiteers are just citizens and voters with a point of view based on what they perceive and believe, much like everyone else.

    You either have democracy or you don't, and there is no getting around the fact that Wilson held a referendum to confirm keeping the UK in and a generation later Cameron tested the waters again. No Remainer wants to talk about Wilson fulfilling that Labour Manifesto promise, because it doesn't fit their narrative.
    Given that I mentioned that on this thread 2 or 3 times, it can hardly be true. But equally, Brexiters fail to acknowledge that Powell start the "parliamentary struggle" against membership of the EEC on the night of the 75 referendum to "frustrate" the process of ascension in the house of parliament and fight for another referedum - I've posted a video of him saying this to Robin Day on the election results coverage.

    That is a democracy at work.


  18. #10642
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    It's all Henry VI's fault for descending into madness and losing our continental possessions. We've been recluse islanders disrupting the concentration of power in Europe ever since.

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  19. #10643
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by DanR View Post
    It's because some people have spent the last 40 years reading nothing but the Daily Fail, and believing it without question.

    I sort of get why the inhabitants of Spalding think their crop picking jobs are under threat from immigration, but why do they not see the opportunities for them to get a skill and use it at work or to live in 27 different countries?
    Because that opportunity isn't really there. How many of our skilled people go and work in Bulgaria and Romania for example?

    Free movement is fine if the movement is between nations of equal standing. When you have a block of nations of which around 20% are substantially poorer than the rest then the only use of that country in the block is to provide cheap human resources to the richer countries as those people are prepared to do a few years stint for more money they could make in their own country and then they go home.

    UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany all have positive net migration figures. It should be a zero-sum calculation not all posting positive net migration. Somewhere else is offsetting those figures. No surprises when you see Romania and Bulgaria have massive outflows of people.

    Free movement of people means the poorest countries of the block lose their best people and the poorer people in rich countries have suppressed wages. It means the governments of richer countries benefit from cheaper skilled workers and means the richest workers can have access to a wider array of well paying jobs.

    It's no good anymore saying get a skill and go abroad, because unless you are the very, very best at it then you're going to get told to go swivel because a cheaper resource or automation has beat you to it. Only years worth of experience counts now to land the best roles, which is why young people are finding it so hard.

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  20. #10644
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Unity View Post
    Given that I mentioned that on this thread 2 or 3 times, it can hardly be true. But equally, Brexiters fail to acknowledge that Powell start the "parliamentary struggle" against membership of the EEC on the night of the 75 referendum to "frustrate" the process of ascension in the house of parliament and fight for another referedum - I've posted a video of him saying this to Robin Day on the election results coverage.

    That is a democracy at work.
    There was also that other great statesman and orator of '75 on the Labour Backbenches, Peter Shore.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g

    By god we so miss people like Powell and Shore in the house now, not so much for Brexit, but rather for the high quality of politics they brought to the house and country.


  21. #10645
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Can’t we find some way to blame Hitler?


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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Juif Rouge View Post
    Because Chris "The English" are not the "Germans". Thank fuck.

    Britain may indeed have an Island Mentality but equally you can say that the German obsession with order and control stems from the insecurity of having the French on one side and the Russians on the other. One of the von Moltke's even admitted as much I believe.
    Our imported Royal German dynasty sorted the French, mon cher!


  23. #10647
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by george lyall View Post
    Our imported Royal German dynasty sorted the French, mon cher!
    Britain hasn't fought a war against France for over 200 YEARS.

    You mean the "imported Royal German dynasty" sorted out their German cousins.....TWICE in living memory.


  24. #10648
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    So Trump is giving May an ultimatum.
    Get a deal with the EU or get a deal with the US.
    So that's marvellous.

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  25. #10649
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbus View Post
    So Trump is giving May an ultimatum.
    Get a deal with the EU or get a deal with the US.
    So that's marvellous.

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    He's visited 17 other countries before he came to the UK . He probably couldn't delay this visit any longer.
    A special relationship, yeah right.

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  26. #10650
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    Default Re: The Big BREXIT discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbus View Post
    So Trump is giving May an ultimatum.
    Get a deal with the EU or get a deal with the US.
    So that's marvellous.

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    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44815558

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