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Thread: New Hillsborough Inquest

      
  1. #1
    Enzo Molinari
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    Default New Hillsborough Inquest

    Regardless of people's opinions, I hope the persons responsible for covering up the polices short comings are hauled over the coals at last.


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    I hope we get the whole truth this time and not just the 'truth' that some want to hear


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by StuC View Post
    I hope we get the whole truth this time and not just the 'truth' that some want to hear
    Indeed.

    Then we can never mention it again.


  5. #4
    Enzo Molinari
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    Agreed


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    No comment


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Some people don't wanna hear the real truth ...


  8. #7
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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    It needs to be the truth from every and for every aspect, not just the cover up, which was ghastly.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Im not confident.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie PAndy!son View Post
    It needs to be the truth from every and for every aspect, not just the cover up, which was ghastly.
    All the evidence compiled to date is available to the inquest and the standard of proof is the (lower) civil one, i.e. the balance of probabilities.

    South Yorkshire Police's legal representatives have already announced that they intend to run the "drunken fans" defence. If they fail to convince the jury, in a forum with such a low standard of proof, then it will appear that the argument has no merit and the fans will be exonerated for good,

    On the other hand, if the jury accepts it and finds the Liverpool fans culpable, it will pretty much end any chance of the families getting a verdict of unlawful killing - with misadventure the most likely alternative verdict. The police will claim (at least partial) exoneration and so, ironically will Kelvin McKenzie and the Sun.

    One thing seems certain: whichever narrative you subscribe to, it's pretty certain that one or the other will be comprehensively trashed by the end of the inquest.


  11. #10
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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Can it not be possible that it was no ones fault, surely the culture of the time might play a part there were always too many fans and plenty that effectively went in without tickets which is stealing. I am glad there is another inquest but I am really uneasy with people thinking that the police committed manslaughter. Can it be no ones fault and the police pay compensation for liable(false accusation) to the families.


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    Default

    Or that multiple people and the actions of them were to blame? It just needs to be done with. It's ridiculous.

    "Ive only met Andy....last week actually and can confirm he is in 2nd place in sexiest fucker on here stakes." -Barry

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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Cork Red View Post
    All the evidence compiled to date is available to the inquest and the standard of proof is the (lower) civil one, i.e. the balance of probabilities.

    South Yorkshire Police's legal representatives have already announced that they intend to run the "drunken fans" defence. If they fail to convince the jury, in a forum with such a low standard of proof, then it will appear that the argument has no merit and the fans will be exonerated for good,

    On the other hand, if the jury accepts it and finds the Liverpool fans culpable, it will pretty much end any chance of the families getting a verdict of unlawful killing - with misadventure the most likely alternative verdict. The police will claim (at least partial) exoneration and so, ironically will Kelvin McKenzie and the Sun.

    One thing seems certain: whichever narrative you subscribe to, it's pretty certain that one or the other will be comprehensively trashed by the end of the inquest.
    Nice post, but the last bit I doubt as as per every investigation into Hillsborough there'll be a lot of blame thrown about with pretty much zero thought to those that died, regardless of what the facts say.

    I really don't see why it should be this difficult to not totally forget, but at least let go, and remember those who died rather than use their names for 'justice' or whatever. The SYP didn't deliberately kill those people and I'm pretty sure at the time whoever was responsible for the decision to open the gates was doing so in order to protect the fans outside without knowing what was occurring inside.

    Seeking prison sentences just seems like a retribution which shouldn't exist. If we learned from the disaster, which given football in its current status you'd be hard pressed to argue against, then that's the main thing.

    There's no justice for the families who lost someone 25 years ago. Time to move on.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    So is the new inquest just looking at the deaths of the poor unfortunate souls who died, the causes of those deaths individually ?.

    Or covering the whole afternoon's events leading upto the deaths.

    The Police have lied and covered their backsides, they have been dishonest, but who could expect more from Police in reality. I still feel by concentrating on the dead, alcohol tests etc, they have allowed the events leading upto the crush, to still be under the radar.

    Before any younger fans have a pop, you have to be of my vintage and experienced Liverpool fans at close quarters, to understand the intense dislike an distrust that surrounded them at the time. They had earned their foul reputation.

    Last edited by sedgred; 02-04-14 at 08:03.

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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieLePop View Post
    I really don't see why it should be this difficult to not totally forget, but at least let go, and remember those who died rather than use their names for 'justice' or whatever. The SYP didn't deliberately kill those people and I'm pretty sure at the time whoever was responsible for the decision to open the gates was doing so in order to protect the fans outside without knowing what was occurring inside.

    Seeking prison sentences just seems like a retribution which shouldn't exist. If we learned from the disaster, which given football in its current status you'd be hard pressed to argue against, then that's the main thing.

    There's no justice for the families who lost someone 25 years ago. Time to move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by sedgred View Post
    So is the new inquest just looking at the deaths of the poor unfortunate souls who died, the causes of those deaths individually ?.

    Or covering the whole afternoon's events leading upto the deaths.

    The Police have lied and covered their backsides, they have been dishonest, but who could expect more from Police in reality. I still feel by concentrating on the dead, alcohol tests etc, they have allowed the events leading upto the crush, to still be under the radar.
    Some good points here lads. I think that the inquest will cover all aspects of the day, including the behaviour of Liverpool fans at Leppings Lane. Although, I've made my own thoughts on the matter clear down the years, I'm happy to await the jury's verdict and if they find the Liverpool fans culpable to some degree in the disaster, I will happily hold up my hands and admit I was wrong.

    I think you're right that, no matter what the result, some people won't be ready to move on - but that's human nature. That being said, if the verdict is unlawful killing then prosecutions may follow, although the DPP tends to be averse to prosecuting police, as convictions are as rare as hens teeth. If the verdict is misadventure, then it's difficult to see where the families could go next.


  16. #15
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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    What always made me slightly angry was some have always denyed that alcohol was an issue, every game you go to home but mostly away even now you see someone who looks like they have had to much to drink and shouldnt really be in the ground and its got so much better than it used to be.

    I went to Hillsborough as a 10 year old with my dad and all his mates, we went on a bus sorted out by one of his mates, everyone on that bus bar me and the driver of course was drinking as it was the norm...... We wouldnt have been the only ones... cant understand why alcohol as a mitigating factor will not be accepted into the argument by some.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Perhaps they will explain why they didn't take into account witness statements from Forest fans that were there. Our evidence was almost completely ignored at the time and in subsequent enquiries. 25 years on our statements, if given now, would be worthless but if someone had sought our version of events at the time I believe that we would at least have set some strong context for the events of the day.

    I'm all for slagging Scousers but people should remember that the 96 that died were innocent victims in all of this. One of them was 10 years old. I'd like to see the truth for their sakes. Unfortunately for the city of Liverpool I doubt that the real truth would be as black and white as they have always claimed. This whole subject is so emotive that they simply cannot (will not) accept that the blood alcohol levels of the dead are pretty much irrelevant as most of the victims had been inside the ground and on the Leppings Lane terrace well in advance of the gates being opened.

    Any reference to possible drunkeness is immediately spun as a slur on the dead to deflect attention away from the valid point that a significant number of those attempting to get into Hillsborough may have been drunk and contributed to the problem. Drinking was part of the pre match culture so why would the Liverpool supporters arriving as the game started have been any different? Why would people not have been attempting to force ticketless entry when LFC fans had a deserved reputation for having done it before and since, most notably in Turkey in 2005?

    I would like the inquiry to settle those questions. Unfortunately this has gone on so long, demonstrated so much failure and so many lies from those in authority and become so political that no reversal of the "completely innocent Scousers" story is ever going to be allowed to happen.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerthecat View Post
    Perhaps they will explain why they didn't take into account witness statements from Forest fans that were there. Our evidence was almost completely ignored at the time and in subsequent enquiries. 25 years on our statements, if given now, would be worthless but if someone had sought our version of events at the time I believe that we would at least have set some strong context for the events of the day.

    I'm all for slagging Scousers but people should remember that the 96 that died were innocent victims in all of this. One of them was 10 years old. I'd like to see the truth for their sakes. Unfortunately for the city of Liverpool I doubt that the real truth would be as black and white as they have always claimed. This whole subject is so emotive that they simply cannot (will not) accept that the blood alcohol levels of the dead are pretty much irrelevant as most of the victims had been inside the ground and on the Leppings Lane terrace well in advance of the gates being opened.

    Any reference to possible drunkeness is immediately spun as a slur on the dead to deflect attention away from the valid point that a significant number of those attempting to get into Hillsborough may have been drunk and contributed to the problem. Drinking was part of the pre match culture so why would the Liverpool supporters arriving as the game started have been any different? Why would people not have been attempting to force ticketless entry when LFC fans had a deserved reputation for having done it before and since, most notably in Turkey in 2005?

    I would like the inquiry to settle those questions. Unfortunately this has gone on so long, demonstrated so much failure and so many lies from those in authority and become so political that no reversal of the "completely innocent Scousers" story is ever going to be allowed to happen.
    Looks like you'll get your wish.

    RT@david_conn Coroner's questions 6: What was the conduct of some fans - not those who died? Did it play any part in the disaster?
    The inquest has to look at this because SYP have said that it will form part of their defence. With 25 years of evidence from numerous enquiries available to the trial, this will probably be the definitive view on the conduct of Liverpool fans that day. Taylor called certain fans an "aggravating factor" but not a cause of the disaster. IfSYP can't prove that, on balance, the Liverpool fans actions on the day (regardless of their reputation at the time) were a cause of the disaster then, effectively, all suspicion will be lifted from them.


  19. #18
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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Cork Red View Post
    Looks like you'll get your wish.



    The inquest has to look at this because SYP have said that it will form part of their defence. With 25 years of evidence from numerous enquiries available to the trial, this will probably be the definitive view on the conduct of Liverpool fans that day. Taylor called certain fans an "aggravating factor" but not a cause of the disaster. IfSYP can't prove that, on balance, the Liverpool fans actions on the day (regardless of their reputation at the time) were a cause of the disaster then, effectively, all suspicion will be lifted from them.
    I would hope that you are right. However I have little doubt that the Liverpool "Grief and Respect" industry will be on overtime to ensure that any serious investigation of this aspect is immediately dismissed. With SYP reputation already mortally wounded by the lies already uncovered then I can't see them being able to prove anything.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerthecat View Post
    Perhaps they will explain why they didn't take into account witness statements from Forest fans that were there. Our evidence was almost completely ignored at the time and in subsequent enquiries. 25 years on our statements, if given now, would be worthless but if someone had sought our version of events at the time I believe that we would at least have set some strong context for the events of the day.

    I'm all for slagging Scousers but people should remember that the 96 that died were innocent victims in all of this. One of them was 10 years old. I'd like to see the truth for their sakes. Unfortunately for the city of Liverpool I doubt that the real truth would be as black and white as they have always claimed. This whole subject is so emotive that they simply cannot (will not) accept that the blood alcohol levels of the dead are pretty much irrelevant as most of the victims had been inside the ground and on the Leppings Lane terrace well in advance of the gates being opened.

    Any reference to possible drunkeness is immediately spun as a slur on the dead to deflect attention away from the valid point that a significant number of those attempting to get into Hillsborough may have been drunk and contributed to the problem. Drinking was part of the pre match culture so why would the Liverpool supporters arriving as the game started have been any different? Why would people not have been attempting to force ticketless entry when LFC fans had a deserved reputation for having done it before and since, most notably in Turkey in 2005?

    I would like the inquiry to settle those questions. Unfortunately this has gone on so long, demonstrated so much failure and so many lies from those in authority and become so political that no reversal of the "completely innocent Scousers" story is ever going to be allowed to happen.
    you literally stole all the words out of my mouth


  21. #20

    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Call me heartless, but, whilst I can understand the families desire to try and find out what happened that day, will a new inquiry find it. I suspect that many of those affected have already made up their minds what they feel the outcome should be and if the new inquiry doesn't reflect their view they will still not accept the result.

    According to a Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-Cameron.html)) The first inquiry cost £200m, that is £2,083,333 for each person that died. Most of that money would have gone in legal fees. 25 years after the deaths, has too much time now passed to reach reliable conclusions?

    I would like the families to have closure on the events of that day in 1989, but, could the money be better spent saving lives now. Would it be better spent stopping children being mistreated, or getting people off of drugs, making medicines available to keep people alive. All I'm saying is that there is an opportunity cost for government money. Is this the best use?


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Any takers on the odds of a scouse appearing and telling the Inquest, " Well me and me scallies were a bit late, pissed and tried to to get to the gates ".

    This is where SYP really messed up. How and if does that factor get taken into account. I think the two groups are a separate entity yet part of the whole, as RrC has highlighted wonderfully well in his post.

    Last edited by sedgred; 02-04-14 at 13:18.

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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by sedgred View Post
    Any takers on the odds of a scouse appearing and telling the Inquest, " Well me and me scallies were a bit late, pissed and tried to to get to the gates ".
    And if any copper dares to suggest that sort of thing may have at least contributed a bit to the disaster they'll be accused of a cover up.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Anyone who believes the victims acted in a way that brought their own deaths are criminally insane.police suggestions that the dieing were intoxicated,even the children, sickens me to this day.
    The blame lies in the commanders inability to do his job proffesionally.
    He was inept to put it mildly,no one was going to get hurt outside the ground,he shoved them inside just to clear the street, with no thought for those already inside.Yes ppl who havent got tickets shouldnt have been in the area,but they didnt open the gates.
    The crap that the judiciary have allowed to go on, unchallenged all these years needs to be put right,for the good of every human being in this country.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Baxter View Post
    Anyone who believes the victims acted in a way that brought their own deaths are criminally insane.police suggestions that the dieing were intoxicated,even the children, sickens me to this day.
    The blame lies in the commanders inability to do his job proffesionally.
    He was inept to put it mildly,no one was going to get hurt outside the ground,he shoved them inside just to clear the street, with no thought for those already inside.Yes ppl who havent got tickets shouldnt have been in the area,but they didnt open the gates.
    The crap that the judiciary have allowed to go on, unchallenged all these years needs to be put right,for the good of every human being in this country.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting the unfortunate people who were crushed acted in a way which brought upon their own deaths.

    I think what is often ignored, is the very likely outcome that those who were coming in late, were most likely drunk, some with and some without tickets, and it is their actions which played a part in the deaths of their own fans.

    The ones who were unfortunate, appear to be the ones who arrived in good time, with tickets and probably not drunk.


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    Default Re: New Hillsborough Inquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Baxter View Post
    Anyone who believes the victims acted in a way that brought their own deaths are criminally insane.police suggestions that the dieing were intoxicated,even the children, sickens me to this day.
    The blame lies in the commanders inability to do his job proffesionally.
    He was inept to put it mildly,no one was going to get hurt outside the ground,he shoved them inside just to clear the street, with no thought for those already inside.Yes ppl who havent got tickets shouldnt have been in the area,but they didnt open the gates.
    The crap that the judiciary have allowed to go on, unchallenged all these years needs to be put right,for the good of every human being in this country.
    Who is blaming the 96 that died? I certainly didn't. One was 10 years old. My point was that it was pointless alcohol testing them, they had largely been in the ground for some time. What wasnt tested was the blood alcohol of those outside and it's too late to do that now.

    Last edited by rogerthecat; 05-04-14 at 22:58. Reason: Wasn't not was

 

 

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