Kick it out

[TheDude]

I'd rather be a shit manager and have a huge wang personally

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[mouldynffc]

Yep. So Roy Keane started off at money rich Sunderland. David Platt started off at the world famous Nottingham Forest. And Paul Ince started off at Macclesfield.

Who, at the time, were 92nd out of 92 football league clubs.

Ince's playing career stands comparison with Platt and Keane, and Shearer, and Gareth Southgate. Tony Adams and Dennis Wise were also contemporaries of his and got better first jobs, though admittedly not as glamorous as the Middlesbroughs of this world(!).

I don't believe in quotas as a solution to anything. They demean capable candidates. They're not the solution, but that doesn't therefore mean that the problem doesn't exist

And Barnes went from MK Dons to Blackburn Rovers? When was the last time a white guy in english football got that kind of a punt taken on him? As has also been said Barnes went on to Celtic for his first job... more importantly Both went on to fail.

Chris Powell seems to be making a name for himself though and he seems to be doing a good job. I am sure he like the white guys will progress if they are good enough. But can you explain how you see this as a race issue? Do you genuinely think the chairmen who pay millions of pounds of their own money to employ a variety of black players in their squad suddenly turn into ignorant racists when attempting to appoint a manager?

[Rich]

I see the Ferdinands are being critical of the PFA and FA for not doing enough to combat racism.

Nice, coming from the man who made a racist tweet to Ashley Cole only a month ago.

Is Rio Ferdinand, a man guilty of racism himself alongside a lengthy drugs ban, the man to really crusade against the PFA?

[Rich]

Do you genuinely think the chairmen who pay millions of pounds of their own money to employ a variety of black players in their squad suddenly turn into ignorant racists when attempting to appoint a manager?

The counterpoint will be that they trust them to kick a ball but not to handle millions of pounds of their money.

I'm not sure that's race related, would you put someone like Matt Derbyshire, for example, in charge of a multi million pound budget?

[DanR]

The counterpoint will be that they trust them to kick a ball but not to handle millions of pounds of their money.

I'm not sure that's race related, would you put someone like Matt Derbyshire, for example, in charge of a multi million pound budget?

If I was running a cinema I might.

[Jimmy Floyd Stranglew@nk]

Do you genuinely think the chairmen who pay millions of pounds of their own money to employ a variety of black players in their squad suddenly turn into ignorant racists when attempting to appoint a manager?

No. Managerial appointments are informed by an entirely different set of criteria. And it's not a visceral or demonstrative racism that we're talking about anyway, but rather a latent, or lingering, prejudice.

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

If I was running a cinema I might.

Well, Celtic for one!

So surely that's a great example of equality in practice?

[mouldynffc]

No. Managerial appointments are informed by an entirely different set of criteria. And it's not a visceral or demonstrative racism that we're talking about anyway, but rather a latent, or lingering, prejudice.

But it boils down to the same thing. Whether it's different criteria or not if a key factor in managerial appointments is colour of skin then surely that means that paying fees and wages of such a high amount for playing staff is just as off putting? If anything having black players being common place in this league surely just disproves this theory from the off? I can't understand how you can be racially discriminating if the chairmen are not even thinking about colour of skin as a factor? Which I wholeheartedly believe is the case.

I think personally that when you're looking for a manager you look at track record, experience and success in a manager. The fact is at a high level, there are no black managers that can turn and say that they have those things... So they are naturally going to be bottom of the pile. Now that for me is a legitimate, fair and non-racist reason why black managers are almost non-existent in English Football. For example would you rather forest had employed Ince for example over O'Driscoll? I know it's one case but you go up and down most of the teams I think you could compare them to black managers and say yes I'd rather have that candidate over a black candidate.. and it would be for all the right and fair reasons.

Any method of forcing black managers into the game is going to turn the game on the other foot. At some point somewhere a white candidate in much better standing for a job is going to be turned down to let a black person in and "make things look better" now that to me is a racist way of employing someone. Like I said before given time it will come it is inevitable that it will happen with the amount of black players we now have in English Football. I think this comes more down to demographics and the history of english football rather than being an issue of racism though.

[Jimmy Floyd Stranglew@nk]

But it boils down to the same thing etc...

No it really doesn't. You're reducing a complex issue to a simple binary. It's not about whether or not avowedly racist men are running football clubs, it's about whether or not a residual prejudice informs certain decisions. The same chairman might happily pay a black player Ģ100,000 to score goals and yet be reluctant to pay him a fraction of that amount to pick the team and manage transfer policy. Racism manifests itself in plenty of ways, it's not all monkey chanting and seperate water fountains.

As for your second "point", of course I'm relieved that we appointed O'Driscoll rather than Ince but that's not the issue we're discussing, is it?

When clubs appoint a first time manager, they have no managerial track record to go on and so they have to make a judgement based on something more intangible.

It's only valid in supporting the "Ince argument". And let's be very clear about what that is; namely, an argument about inequality of first opportunity.

Yep. So Roy Keane started off at money rich Sunderland. David Platt started off at the world famous Nottingham Forest. And Paul Ince started off at Macclesfield.

Who, at the time, were 92nd out of 92 football league clubs.

...etc, etc. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be? Anyone can appoint according to track record, but how do you choose between two candidates with no track record to speak of? And if no one's giving you a first job, how do you build a track record?

And finally...as for the preferred treatment stuff, I've said already in this thread that I don't believe in quotas. That being as it is, your argument about the right candidate losing out is moot; the right candidate loses out more than enough as it is. Stuart Pearce was passed over for the Forest job in favour of Joe Kinnear and Gary Megson. There are plenty of better arguments against tokenism than pity the poor white man.

[RobbieLePop]

Bit of help required on Forest banter's version of this thread if you would Brolly, seeing as you manage to put arguments across much better than I ever could.

[mouldynffc]

It really isn't that complex it is a simple of matter either it is racist or it isn't. The person in control of the situation i.e. the chairmen know if it is a racist situation or not you cannot be sub-conciously racist there is one of two options as far as I am concerned black managers aren't being picked because they are black then fair enough there is a race issue there, or black managers aren't being picked because the candidates out there and available are not deemed good enough.. if that is the case then where is the race issue?

I think another thing is applicants. We know of Ince and Powell at the moment who could apply or be considered for managerial posts, who else is there that is black?

[Jimmy Floyd Stranglew@nk]

...you cannot be sub-conciously racist...

That, in itself, is a remarkable statement.

[the mask of zorro]

The 'Rooney Rule' would be interesting, does that mean that all clubs have to consider appointing a thick scouser?

But seriously, this would be like the city council's 'positive discrimination' programme, where you couldn't apply for a position unless you were, disabled, lesbian an ethnic minority etc.

Now I can't prove that the above is the reason for this, but anyone who like me has dealings with the council, will find that there are lots of people in positions at the council, who are not capable of doing the job they are paid for. fair play to the council for giving them the opportunity, but it's bloody frustrating when it affects your work.

I see tonight, that this proposal for the 'Rooney Rule' here, would include having at least 20% of managers in the premier and football leagues to be black. This is something that should be happening naturally anyway. Anyone of my era that used to play local football will remember that the likes of Clumber K&B, Santos and WI carib's, always had all black outplayers, and a nutcase white goalie. But natural progression now see's lots of black goalkeepers.

There is without doubt an imbalance in the number of black managers, but I believe the natural talent will eventually shine through and numbers will rectify themselves.

[Ravi]

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
I'm in favour of PD in very exceptional circumstances as a one off, but the Rooney Rule applied now could only be poisonous.
All that happens is 1) no one has respect for the 'token' who gets the job, because no one believes they got it on merit, regardless of whether they deserved it or not. 2) Others are discriminated against, or believe that they have been discriminated against (whether they have been or not) and this breeds resentment and further problems down the line.
Ignorant & simplistic nonsense.

[incapable hulk]

Surely Ruud Gullit was higher profile?

Ruud Gullit is often forgotten in these conversations

[Middle of No where]

I'd like to know how the proposed sacking of players found guilty is going to work. If this had been in place Liverpool and Chelsea would have had to sack Suarez and Terry, and then what any other team can just sign them up?? Will they also be banned, what's to stop them going abroad?

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by mouldynffc
...you cannot be sub-conciously racist...

That, in itself, is a remarkable statement.

I found out that I was!

[Rich]

what's to stop them going abroad?

Their racism, I guess!

[Wes' Organ]

The 'Rooney Rule' would be interesting, does that mean that all clubs have to consider appointing a thick scouser?

There is a saftey net in place to prevent this as they would have to apply for a job to be considered.

[mouldynffc]

That, in itself, is a remarkable statement.

Is it? Have I been racist without knowing it? There are very clear boundaries betweem what is and isn' acceptableand in these days the racism issue is huge what is something that would class as being racist without realising? Are yiu suggesting that picking a white manager because he is best man fir the job in a chairmans eyes is a form of subconcious racism? If so we may as well start the civil war now if you ask me.. Just sounds to me we aregetting to a stage when managers are going to be picked on skin colour rather than quality of manager which I think (hope) is the last thing anybody wants.

[sedgred]

The alternative side to stamping out racism, has been played out without the publicity banners which normally add fuel to the fire..........An Oldham player has been informed that after a police investigation into accusations that he racially abused a ball boy at Sheffield utd, the allegations were made by spectators.

The player admitted swearing at the lad when he kicked the ball away as he stooped to pick it up, always denied racial abuse.

Fans are unbelievably partisan at times, we have all seen the lynch mob men tantality.

[OxfordshireRed]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...y-Welbeck.html

and here we go again....incredible that we seem to take no notice of previous antics and insist on making racist remarks or actions in full view of the cameras. He will get caught and hopefully banned for a very long time.

[RobbieLePop]

John Terry, Mark Clattenburg, Chelsea fan...

What do they all have in common? Yarp, they white fools.

[sedgred]

John Terry, Mark Clattenburg, Chelsea fan...

What do they all have in common? Yarp, they white fools.

See the white racist linesmen and the fourth official, who were miked upto Mark Clattenberg are endorsing institutional racism by saying they heard nothing untowards..........still what did the brothers expect to happen.

Good job the society of black lawyers are getting involved in this type of allegation, whoops I mean incident because it's racist it must have happened....soon be the most influential group in English football.

[Wes' Organ]

Loved the Manure banner in the week, along the lines of "Chelsea fighting racism since last Sunday"