the demise of liverpool 2

[sedgred]

Yes, if the Bishop of Liverpool, a woman heavily involved in a film that blamed the police for Hillsborough, a man who has made a career out of prosecuting the police and a man from the police internal affairs team have said that the police were at fault and it could have happened to anyone who are we to disagree?

Ouch...........The truth so often hurts ! Top post

[LTLF Sponsors]

[NWRed]

Yes, if the Bishop of Liverpool, a woman heavily involved in a film that blamed the police for Hillsborough, a man who has made a career out of prosecuting the police and a man from the police internal affairs team have said that the police were at fault and it could have happened to anyone who are we to disagree?

Please remember that we are supporters of a football team whose fans tend to have a lot of antipathy towards Liverpool and their fans, and that a lot of us clearly hold strong feelings and prejudices about Scousers in general. If you insist on accusing the panel of being corrupt based on nothing more than their identities and their past views on the matter, you have to accept that you would fail the same test.

[GOBIAS Industries]

Extremely well put.

But we all know it is bollocks.

[Huxley]

Surely, who they are and the views they hold are rather crucial factors when looking at a big stack of information. Especially when in a position of massive influence.

LTLF hivemind can be as biased as they like because, and thank the lord for this, the resulting opinions won't be broadcast across the country as stonewall ice cold fact moments later.

[NWRed]

But we all know it is bollocks.

MUST we fucking start this again? I thought we'd stopped saying 'ah, but the report...' and 'ah, but Heysel...' to each other and had moved on.

What did you expect to happen when you posted that? Am I supposed to read it and think: "My GOD! He's right!!!! It IS all bollocks! How can I have been so blind for so long? Thank you, GOBIAS Industries, for opening my eyes to the real truth with your words of infinite wisdom!"

You're not offering anything new, so if you insist on raking the whole thing over again, why not just go back a few pages and read what we all said last time round?

[Phooey]

Please remember that we are supporters of a football team whose fans tend to have a lot of antipathy towards Liverpool and their fans, and that a lot of us clearly hold strong feelings and prejudices about Scousers in general. If you insist on accusing the panel of being corrupt based on nothing more than their identities and their past views on the matter, you have to accept that you would fail the same test.

The difference being that any conclusions I had come to would have been refuted by the 'Justice' campaign.

When Forest fans do the same thing to a Liverpool biased committee they are branded as delusional...

[Phooey]

MUST we fucking start this again? I thought we'd stopped saying 'ah, but the report...' and 'ah, but Heysel...' to each other and had moved on.

What did you expect to happen when you posted that? Am I supposed to read it and think: "My GOD! He's right!!!! It IS all bollocks! How can I have been so blind for so long? Thank you, GOBIAS Industries, for opening my eyes to the real truth with your words of infinite wisdom!"

You're not offering anything new, so if you insist on raking the whole thing over again, why not just go back a few pages and read what we all said last time round?

No-one has moved on though. I thought the point was to find the truth so that people could have some closure? If that's the case then why are there now calls for prosecutions?

There is a world of difference between justice and revenge.

[NWRed]

Surely, who they are and the views they hold are rather crucial factors when looking at a big stack of information. Especially when in a position of massive influence.

LTLF hivemind can be as biased as they like because, and thank the lord for this, the resulting opinions won't be broadcast across the country as stonewall ice cold fact moments later.

I know we CAN be biased, and that there will be no comeback as a result. But it's still legitimate for me to point out that a lot of people on here ARE biased, and that this bias damages the credibility of what they say - even though what they say has no impact on anything beyond my sanity.

[NWRed]

The difference being that any conclusions I had come to would have been refuted by the 'Justice' campaign.

When Forest fans do the same thing to a Liverpool biased committee they are branded as delusional...

So you are outright accusing the panel of being biased? Better than just hinting at it, I suppose.

Evidence?

[NWRed]

No-one has moved on though. I thought the point was to find the truth so that people could have some closure? If that's the case then why are there now calls for prosecutions?

There is a world of difference between justice and revenge.

Prosecution =/= revenge.

[Phooey]

So you are outright accusing the panel of being biased? Better than just hinting at it, I suppose.

Evidence?

I read their profiles (it's on the investigation website) and far from the 'biased Bishop but others to balance it' there seems to be an awful lot of anti-police history in there.

We've had two previous investigations that said that it was a terrible accident (neither blamed the Liverpool fans) so why have a third? Was it to attach blame to one or two individuals?

I really can't see how those who lost family and friends at Hillsborough are going to feel better when someone, anyone, is in prison. It won't bring anyone back and will be something that comes back to the surface at every parole hearing before that person is released.

[Phooey]

Prosecution =/= revenge.

Prosecution based on biased evidence = revenge.

[NWRed]

I read their profiles (it's on the investigation website) and far from the 'biased Bishop but others to balance it' there seems to be an awful lot of anti-police history in there.

We've had two previous investigations that said that it was a terrible accident (neither blamed the Liverpool fans) so why have a third? Was it to attach blame to one or two individuals?

I really can't see how those who lost family and friends at Hillsborough are going to feel better when someone, anyone, is in prison. It won't bring anyone back and will be something that comes back to the surface at every parole hearing before that person is released.

As a society, we use imprisonment to punish people for their crimes, not in an attempt to resurrect the dead or to give grieving relatives something to smile about. Leaving aside (PLEASE) whether or not you think a crime was committed, surely you must agree that if someone is held to be criminally responsible, they must be punished?

[NWRed]

Prosecution based on biased evidence = revenge.

1) No it doesn't.

2) You can't just say the evidence was biased without offering any proof. It doesn't mean anything, however many times you say it.

[Phooey]

The thing that really winds me up about all of this (and after living amongst scousers for a couple of years I don't have a pathological hatred for them) is that reminds just how shitty being a football fan was at the time. I worked a lot of Saturdays so couldn't get to a huge amount of games but the ones I did get to I was generally treated by a criminal by the police and as a target by the opposition fans.

Being spat on and coined for 90 minutes made it difficult to watch the match properly and on terraces just trying to keep your footing when anything exciting happened was a challenge. Your headstart for the car before they late the opposition fans out was useful for perfecting your sprinting through a crowd technique only to find that the car wouldn't start and you were fearing for your life.

At the time it seemed like fun but looking back I can't believe more people weren't, at the least, seriously injured.

[Huxley]

I know we CAN be biased, and that there will be no comeback as a result. But it's still legitimate for me to point out that a lot of people on here ARE biased, and that this bias damages the credibility of what they say - even though what they say has no impact on anything beyond my sanity.

Indeed it is legitimate for your good self to put the other side with equal fervour and I commend you for it.

..can't help but feel that a better panel could've been chosen so that these issues wouldn't come up.

[Phooey]

As a society, we use imprisonment to punish people for their crimes, not in an attempt to resurrect the dead or to give grieving relatives something to smile about. Leaving aside (PLEASE) whether or not you think a crime was committed, surely you must agree that if someone is held to be criminally responsible, they must be punished?

Defining whether a crime was committed is the crux of the matter though; two reports said that there wasn't and a third one 23 years after the event magically does.

Given the make up of those who came to the conclusion I strongly doubt the neutrality of the document. It was a terrible accident which brought about a massive change in football, so something good has come of those peoples' terrible losses.

It's a pity that those who lost their lives before them didn't force the issue earlier.

[Phooey]

1) No it doesn't.

2) You can't just say the evidence was biased without offering any proof. It doesn't mean anything, however many times you say it.

Two separate investigations came up with the same answer as me though, I would argue that the burden of proof lies with the revenge brigade.

[Erik]

Two separate investigations came up with the same answer as me though, I would argue that the burden of proof lies with the revenge brigade.

And now they have it. A report that says that the fans were innocent and that the authorities, through negligence, incompetence and neglet conspired to kill them.

The interpretation of that report is that any set of football supporters would have lost 96 of their number on that day.

[Hodgy]

NW Red- prove they weren't biased. As a few have said, the panel's backgrounds could lead one to say they have an agenda. So that alone is enough to question it, which is all we are doing. So, again, I put it to you- prove they weren't, where is your evidence?

Bottom line is you can't prove it, as you keep saying to posters on here. So with your own logic, they are right.

[GOBIAS Industries]

MUST we fucking start this again? I thought we'd stopped saying 'ah, but the report...' and 'ah, but Heysel...' to each other and had moved on.

What did you expect to happen when you posted that? Am I supposed to read it and think: "My GOD! He's right!!!! It IS all bollocks! How can I have been so blind for so long? Thank you, GOBIAS Industries, for opening my eyes to the real truth with your words of infinite wisdom!"

You're not offering anything new, so if you insist on raking the whole thing over again, why not just go back a few pages and read what we all said last time round?

The hypocrisy of what you type beggars belief to be honest nw. The reason I posted what I did and potentially risk 'fucking starting this again' is because you are like a stuck record. You know how many people feel on this site. Why don't you go back a few pages and read what was said last time? Or do you have to have the last word? Do you really think that your one man crusade to defend Liverpool is gonna wash this time? Do you think gobias and sedgred and rich etc..(some of these individuals are one of the many thousands of potential eye witnesses to events of the day who's views were either never sought or have been discounted) are supposed to read it and think: "My GOD! He's right!!!!How can I have been so blind for so long? Thank you, NW red, for opening my eyes to the real truth with your words of infinite wisdom!" you add nothing new you are raking over the same old ground and if anyone deserves a it is you.

[Bonalair]

Can we just leave Hillsborough off this thread and go back to laughing at how shit the vermin scouse team is?

[Gary]

Can we just leave Hillsborough off this thread and go back to laughing at how shit the vermin scouse team is?

Agreed. I was enjoying this thread until it descended into farce.

(I think it was me who brought the subject up again so I'm sorry too)

[Col]

Hillsborough should be banned as a topic on here. The other thread got deleted and this will end up the same way!

[Rich]

Why Col? Some people like to debate it.