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Thread: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

      
  1. #1
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    Default How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    We lose anywhere between £10m and £15m a season apparently.

    Now I can understand a varying figure based on paying out compensation, lack of cup runs etc, but I'm struggling to pin point how it comes to such a figure.

    Let's take a peak at income first...

    We've about 13,000 season tickets year on year, including kids/seniors, but mostly adults. Does rounding the average cost to £300 sound fair? That's £4m in season ticket sales alone. Usual crowds float around the 21,000 mark. Let's put average ticket price at £20 for reasons above. That's another £3.7m. Ticket sales alone over a season generates almost £8m for us.

    TV is another revenue stream, estimated at anywhere between £7m and £19m for Championship clubs. Let's err on the side of caution and say £10m.

    Total so far £17.8m. Tax it and you're down to about £14m.

    £14m a season at least in revenue.

    ----

    Outgoings:

    Let's have a look at the wage bill. This really is best guess but I'm trying to be fair and to avoid bias in my argument I'm slightly inflating my opinion on players wages.

    Camp - 7k
    Cunningham - 5k
    Chambers - 7k
    Morgan - 7k
    Boateng - 9k
    Ando - 6k
    Derbyshire - 12k
    Miller - 15k
    McGugan - 10k
    Reid - 15k
    McCleary - 3k
    Greening - 15k
    Cohen - 8k
    Gunter - 10k
    McGoldrick - 6k
    Moussi - 10k
    Tudgay - 7k
    Smith - 5k
    Blackstock - 10k
    Findley - 4k
    Moloney - 3k
    Majewski - 7k
    Lynch - 5k

    = £185,000 x 52
    = £9.6m

    Add on a couple of million for bonuses and rewards. Add on a million for coaching staff. Add on a couple of million for all other employees (security, ground staff, box office staff). Comes to about £15m in wages.

    Again going to miss out on things like transport, hotels, ground maintenence etc as got no idea of costs, but presume it's not going to be £11m more than what we make from shirt sales and the like.

    Where's this black hole where the cash is going? Or is it just a case that or players are paid far more than they're worth to us?

    Discuss!

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  3. #2
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    I think you may have answered your question in your last but one paragraph.

    We pay our players in total more money than we earn in income. That's why we lose money.

    But we had to pay "the going rate" for players in the vain hope that we will somehow get promoted to the Premier League.

    „I believe in socialism because it seems more humanitarian, rather than every man for himself and 'I'm alright jack' and all those arsehole businessmen with all the loot. I made up my mind from viewing society from that angle. That's where I'm from and there's where I've made my decisions from. That's why I believe in socialism“

    — Joe Strummer

  4. #3
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Oh well that won't be a problem when we're not going for promotion to the Premier League.

    My theory is that we have a really big sofa and all the money is down the back of that.


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    Good point. May need a rummage around down the back of it to see if there's any spare change...


  6. #5
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Agents fees !!

    The Bas*****


  7. #6
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Could it be that Mr Doughty is very good politically with his figures? Could it be that in real terms we've never lost anything like as much as he and Mr Arthur claim?

    I hope that's the case because we've been grossly mismanaged far more than even I'd believe if the figures that are thrown around are true.

    Either way, I'm sure our players are earning far too much. Anything above a couple of hundred quid a week is too much at the minute.


  8. #7
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post
    Good point. May need a rummage around down the back of it to see if there's any spare change...
    Tell Andy Reid there is a Mars Bar down there and he'd clear it out in no time.


  9. #8
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Robbie can i ask why you took off 3 million for Tax?
    You are not taxed on income you are taxed on profit.
    We have not alledgedly made a profit since Doughty has been running the show so we as a club have never paid a penny in direct corparation tax.


  10. #9
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    FY10 turnover was £14.698m, so that's some excellent calculation, Robbie.

    Staff costs for the same period were £15.6m (that's where the much talked about 106% comes from).

    External charges were £5.6m. This would include some VAT payments and such like.
    That gave us a loss of £11m, whack some interest on there (this is where it gets grey as the interest is on the directors loan at 2% above LIBOR), and you're sticking another £1.3m onto the losses.

    For what it's worth, the profits/(losses) over the previous 10 years are thus:
    99 - 7,088
    00 - (11,017)
    01 - (15,030)
    02 - (3,838 )
    03 - (6,566)
    04 - (5,316)
    05 - 1,060
    06 - (7,646)
    07 - (5,143)
    08 - (6,638 )
    09 - (8,524)
    10 - (12,344)

    Make of that what you will.

    Talk to me, Goose.

  11. #10

    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    everyone always refers to this article which is a good read:

    http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011...-and-tall.html

    the two things that amaze me in it is:

    how little money forest bring in - 5th highest in terms of attendances but 13th in terms of revenue

    and obviously how much we spend on wages - £15.6 million - take off 2.6 million for coaching and other wages (admittedly a total guess!) and we have a 25 man senior squad ALL on £10k a week - WTF?


  12. #11
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    FY10 turnover was £14.698m, so that's some excellent calculation, Robbie.

    Staff costs for the same period were £15.6m (that's where the much talked about 106% comes from).

    External charges were £5.6m. This would include some VAT payments and such like.
    That gave us a loss of £11m, whack some interest on there (this is where it gets grey as the interest is on the directors loan at 2% above LIBOR), and you're sticking another £1.3m onto the losses.

    For what it's worth, the profits/(losses) over the previous 10 years are thus:
    99 - 7,088
    00 - (11,017)
    01 - (15,030)
    02 - (3,838 )
    03 - (6,566)
    04 - (5,316)
    05 - 1,060
    06 - (7,646)
    07 - (5,143)
    08 - (6,638 )
    09 - (8,524)
    10 - (12,344)

    Make of that what you will.
    So my wages guess was bang on too? Excellent! Just realised I under-taxed the initial £18m mind.

    Basically then with a bit more control of wages (more McCleary's, less Reid's) and finding a way to better matchday revenue then this £10m figure y-o-y loss could be reduced significantly?

    Interesting to see a profit in '05 too.


  13. #12
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Nail on the head award for the people who have highlighted the difference between matchday attendance and revenue. I think a few weeks back we had a thread on the poor quality of beer and food within the ground compared to outside it (Hot Dog man on Trent Bridge aside).

    Looking at Rich's figures, I wonder what difference it would have made if we'd taken the decision to rebuild a main stand with cracking catering and entertainment facilities? The initial hit would have been large, but then so was the money spent on players whose contracts ran down.


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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Crap or no marketing strategy. I mean FFS weve got one of the biggest fan bases in the League yet were broke. Poor player contract handling leading to valuable players leaving for nothing once their contracts have run out and also being so arrogant as to think were not a selling club when any club at this level needs to realise they are a selling club and sell their players at their highest value when the offers come in.


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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanR View Post
    Nail on the head award for the people who have highlighted the difference between matchday attendance and revenue. I think a few weeks back we had a thread on the poor quality of beer and food within the ground compared to outside it (Hot Dog man on Trent Bridge aside).

    Looking at Rich's figures, I wonder what difference it would have made if we'd taken the decision to rebuild a main stand with cracking catering and entertainment facilities? The initial hit would have been large, but then so was the money spent on players whose contracts ran down.
    Very true. If you look at the Deloittes report for this year (based on last season) http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/u...f00aRCRD.htm#1 and scroll to the 'through the gate' section, you'll see Arsenal, despite not having the biggest stadium in Europe, are in third place which Delloittes largely attribute to their large amounts of hospitality seating and facilities at the Emirates.

    Arsenal are the only Money League club to receive more than 40% of revenues from matchday activities. The move to the Emirates Stadium in 2006/07 provided a step change in the Gunners’ revenue with 2009/10 revenues 69% higher than only five years ago. The increased stadium capacity and premium pricing – and notably the expanded corporate hospitality capacity – have provided more than half of that growth. By contrast, commercial revenues have only provided 11% of the total revenue growth in that same period as the club entered into long term shirt front, kit and naming rights agreements to fund the development, constraining its ability to increase commercial deal values at the same rate.



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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoax View Post
    Crap or no marketing strategy. I mean FFS weve got one of the biggest fan bases in the League yet were broke. Poor player contract handling leading to valuable players leaving for nothing once their contracts have run out and also being so arrogant as to think were not a selling club when any club at this level needs to realise they are a selling club and sell their players at their highest value when the offers come in.
    Regarding being a selling club, that's spot on. There's no way Doughty can moan about putting his hand in his pocket if we're not accepting offers for the likes of Kelvin Wison when he has three months left on his contract and we're not going to play him.


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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanR View Post
    Regarding being a selling club, that's spot on. There's no way Doughty can moan about putting his hand in his pocket if we're not accepting offers for the likes of Kelvin Wison when he has three months left on his contract and we're not going to play him.
    Tyson and Wilson - £1.5 million right there, went for nothing.


  18. #17
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoax View Post
    Crap or no marketing strategy. I mean FFS weve got one of the biggest fan bases in the League yet were broke. Poor player contract handling leading to valuable players leaving for nothing once their contracts have run out and also being so arrogant as to think were not a selling club when any club at this level needs to realise they are a selling club and sell their players at their highest value when the offers come in.
    This.

    FFS any English club outside the Prem not accepting £5m for a defender that's never even played is fucked up, as is any club which doesn't renew their 2nd top goal scorers contract.

    We've gotta go through a transitional period to purge all the poisonous procedures, people and policies which Doughty has put in place at the club, as well as the higher earners he's lumbered us with (even though he's honouring their contracts it still won't fall into place with FFP - which is why the slimy scrote is 'honouring' them as he knows we'll need to get rid).

    If we stay in the Championship then in 3 years time we'll be moving forward again, it's just the immediate future that's a bit wank.


  19. #18
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Been some piss-poor amatuerish decisions made at the CG.


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    The other thing about low commercial revenue in part is a result of the poor facilities at the City Ground.

    Our conferencing facilities are limited-to-non-existent; our hospitality facilities are also small in number and other than (approximately) once a fortnight, the City Ground is closed up. So we make no extra income there.

    Also the proximity of so many pubs and food outlets all cuts in to potential match day revenue - I mean, I always have a few pints an something to eat before and after the match, but I'd prefer to drink in a comfy pub rather than the grotty bars in the Brian Clough stand; which are shut before the end of the match.

    I wonder how much extra revenue Brighton make from having their stadium bars open after each home game?


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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post

    I wonder how much extra revenue Brighton make from having their stadium bars open after each home game?
    We stayed till about 7 and there were still loads of fans kicking around enjoying a couple of beers. Must make probably 30% of what they take pre-game at least?


  22. #21
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscl View Post
    The other thing about low commercial revenue in part is a result of the poor facilities at the City Ground.

    Our conferencing facilities are limited-to-non-existent; our hospitality facilities are also small in number and other than (approximately) once a fortnight, the City Ground is closed up. So we make no extra income there.

    Also the proximity of so many pubs and food outlets all cuts in to potential match day revenue - I mean, I always have a few pints an something to eat before and after the match, but I'd prefer to drink in a comfy pub rather than the grotty bars in the Brian Clough stand; which are shut before the end of the match.

    I wonder how much extra revenue Brighton make from having their stadium bars open after each home game?
    This has always been a bitching point of mine - slurping inside the ground is shite compared to the pubs around it.

    Also, why don't the club do a deal with some of them? Say letting the likes of Hooters or Flirts show Forest away matches live for a cut of the takings?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutts View Post
    We stayed till about 7 and there were still loads of fans kicking around enjoying a couple of beers. Must make probably 30% of what they take pre-game at least?
    Yeah - imagine how much more money Forest could make if they followed suit?

    It's short-sightedness like this that shows us up as a bunch of amateurs!


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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Doughty is saying he will honour contracts because he wants to keep up the fascade that he is a fan, loves the club etc. The real reason Doughty has left is because he has finally realised there is nothing he can do to make any money from the club nor can he make any of the money back that he has spunked. The only thing I can say is thank fuck he has gone now and not in another 10 years time when he has saddled us with another 100m debt.


  25. #24
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Crap or no marketing strategy. I mean FFS weve got one of the biggest fan bases in the League yet were broke. Poor player contract handling leading to valuable players leaving for nothing once their contracts have run out and also being so arrogant as to think were not a selling club when any club at this level needs to realise they are a selling club and sell their players at their highest value when the offers come in.
    This.

    FFS any English club outside the Prem not accepting £5m for a defender that's never even played is fucked up, as is any club which doesn't renew their 2nd top goal scorers contract.
    Hindsight is a valuable and wonderful thing. Sometimes it's not clear cut when it comes to contract negotiations. Take the case of Kelvin Wilson when Celtic approached Nottingham Forest legally in January to discuss contractual terms, a club of that size, history and European ambitions it was virtually impossible to keep hold of the player. While the club could have discussed terms earlier, and attempts were made, the rumours of interest by Scottish and English Premiership sides did unsettle the player. Alas with Robert Earnshaw's contract the club was always fighting a losing battle to keep the player, as Cardiff simply had the revenue and massive backing to pay his wage demands. Whilst this club paid nearly a million pounds each year for Robert Earnshaw's wages and bonuses, the player and his agent knew if he run out his contract at Nottingham Forest, demand dictated that he could negotiate a huge signing on fee and the ability to obtain a higher basic wage, before bonuses when signing for Cardiff.


  26. #25
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    Default Re: How are we consistantly losing so much money year on year?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieLePop View Post
    We lose anywhere between £10m and £15m a season apparently.

    Now I can understand a varying figure based on paying out compensation, lack of cup runs etc, but I'm struggling to pin point how it comes to such a figure.

    Let's take a peak at income first...

    We've about 13,000 season tickets year on year, including kids/seniors, but mostly adults. Does rounding the average cost to £300 sound fair? That's £4m in season ticket sales alone. Usual crowds float around the 21,000 mark. Let's put average ticket price at £20 for reasons above. That's another £3.7m. Ticket sales alone over a season generates almost £8m for us.

    TV is another revenue stream, estimated at anywhere between £7m and £19m for Championship clubs. Let's err on the side of caution and say £10m.

    Total so far £17.8m. Tax it and you're down to about £14m.

    £14m a season at least in revenue.

    ----

    Outgoings:

    Let's have a look at the wage bill. This really is best guess but I'm trying to be fair and to avoid bias in my argument I'm slightly inflating my opinion on players wages.

    Camp - 7k
    Cunningham - 5k
    Chambers - 7k
    Morgan - 7k
    Boateng - 9k
    Ando - 6k
    Derbyshire - 12k
    Miller - 15k
    McGugan - 10k
    Reid - 15k
    McCleary - 3k
    Greening - 15k
    Cohen - 8k
    Gunter - 10k
    McGoldrick - 6k
    Moussi - 10k
    Tudgay - 7k
    Smith - 5k
    Blackstock - 10k
    Findley - 4k
    Moloney - 3k
    Majewski - 7k
    Lynch - 5k

    = £185,000 x 52
    = £9.6m

    Add on a couple of million for bonuses and rewards. Add on a million for coaching staff. Add on a couple of million for all other employees (security, ground staff, box office staff). Comes to about £15m in wages.

    Again going to miss out on things like transport, hotels, ground maintenence etc as got no idea of costs, but presume it's not going to be £11m more than what we make from shirt sales and the like.

    Where's this black hole where the cash is going? Or is it just a case that or players are paid far more than they're worth to us?

    Discuss!
    If the likes of McClowns signings are all on that kind of money then they need to get fucked off pretty sharpish. 15k a week for Miller, Derbyshire and Greening each is absolutely ridiculous.


 

 

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