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Thread: What is the Academy for?

      
  1. #1
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    Default What is the Academy for?

    Been debating for a few days whether to post a new thread on this subject ...

    Basically, as the subject says, what is the purpose of the Nigel Doughty Academy for Nottingham Forest going forward? In the recent past I would say it has been responsible for producing a decent number of players who have played for the first XI. Some of these players have since been sold for varying (but decent) amounts of money, whilst others have maybe drifted by the wayside.

    With the current regime it would seem that youth development at the first XI level is taking a back seat right now with only Ben Osborn getting significant game time, albeit in a position that is arguably not his natural position nor his favoured position. In all likelihood, he'll find himself struggling for pitch time should it be deemed there is a better option at left back.

    As I see it - recent academy graduates would be:
    Jordan Smith - definitely been pushed down the goalkeeping pecking order, and is now probably number 3, having been indisputably number 1 only 12 months ago.
    Joe Worrall - also definitely pushed down the pecking order - potentially now our 5th choice CB, having really been number 1 only 12 months ago as well.
    Ben Brereton - also lower down - he was starting 12 months ago (albeit in a wide position), and is now looking increasingly unlikely to get game time.
    Matty Cash - was a starter early on last year, but then got injured - he's probably just about in the same position as 12 months ago. Getting intermittent time ...
    Ryan Yates - part of the squad, which is an improvement on last year, but not making the bench. At least he was getting match time at County. Not sure this is in his best interest.
    Tyler Walker - bit-part last year for Forest, now the 'main man' it seems for Mansfield. Ultimately, not likely to make it at Forest (but are any of the above?)

    These are the main names (I'm sure BryanRoy and lard know more) - but from my view from afar, it's obvious this year that this is all about more experienced players, and young players learning/making mistakes can't be carried. Therefore, the brief to Karanka must be promotion (or play-offs at worst).

    So ... that means the function of the academy is most likely going to be producing players who will be sold to generate further income - the transfer fees can be increased by certain amounts of game time, but I suspect this isn't a priority right now. As harsh as it might seem, it's probably time to cash in on Brereton and Worrall:
    a) they won't be in the team if we're in the Premier League (as most likely won't be the current incumbents in the first XI)
    b) their value is currently at a peak without further and regular game time that Forest can't provide
    c) it's the job of the academy to have the next players on the production line to take their place (I believe this Anel guy is highly rated by at least one forum member)

    The alternative use of the academy is to provide players for the first XI, but that would mean a reliance on inexperienced players who aren't very likely at all to make a promotion push (and any decent player will then be cherry-picked by other teams who either can make a push or are struggling to avoid the drop from the Premier League).

    To be honest, I can sort of see why Huddersfield (I think it's them) have done away with their academy.

    Thoughts anyone?


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  3. #2
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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    I think theres an inference AK aint interested in youth, when the truth is whoever is good enough gets in the first eleven.

    This is effectively a promotion or bust season for the manager, like it or not, all of the young lads have enough limitations to question their automatic inclusion into a promotion chasing team.

    The Academy should continue to do as its doing, but the kids dont have a divine right to first team football.

    Buck stops with Karanka.


  4. #3

    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Our academy both brought in funds to keep the club alive and supplemented the team with players to improve the squad.

    I'd say that's exactly the case right now and long may it continue.

    Ultimately when teams are poor on the pitch and financially, more kids get a chance.

    But when challenging, it's more difficult because you can't allow for players to learn through mistakes. That's what loans are for.

    But our academy is fantastic, it completely serves its purpose.

    The dream of a 1-11 of academy players, or even 4/5 in a successful team is a pipe dream.

    The minute they become exceptional, agents will force a move. But that's the circle of football players nowadays.
    Certainly no reason to feel downhearted right now. We've just spent 25m and still given another academy grad their debut this season.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by MASE View Post
    I think theres an inference AK aint interested in youth, when the truth is whoever is good enough gets in the first eleven.

    This is effectively a promotion or bust season for the manager, like it or not, all of the young lads have enough limitations to question their automatic inclusion into a promotion chasing team.

    The Academy should continue to do as its doing, but the kids dont have a divine right to first team football.

    Buck stops with Karanka.
    Absolutely; if you're good enough, you're old enough. Karanka has undoubtedly had it spelt out in big letters what the target is this year, and as such he's recruiting and selecting based on that target. I think it's therefore a valid question as to what purpose the academy currently serves, even if the answer isn't one we'd like.

    I really wasn't implying that Karanka isn't interested in the academy players - more that he's being realistic about delivering results, but (in my opinion) as a consequence of this there needs to be an unemotional view of academy players (for the record, I think we should cash in Worrall and Brereton, and anyone else a decent offer comes in for - it potentially plugs financial holes and/or provides more funds for more players).

    I'm optimistic that as the season continues and the current players get more familiar we'll have more WBA type performances to look forward to.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    I'm starting to think that way.

    I don't want a Prem academy where the main aim is profiteering. I would rather shut it down.

    We as supporters also lack any sort of belief in our own (some would say not our own as they dream of playing for Liverpool/Man Utd). We don't have time for them anymore.

    Personally I get a great feeling seeing a young player do well (almost feel nervous for them getting their chance) - It is a unique feeling you don't really get much of in football anymore. I grew up a big supporter of England but you ask most on here they couldn't give a shit really so wanting to try and hope to produce for England has also gone on the back burner.

    Truth is we want to be a Premier League club and all of the above will just be ramped up a notch then.

    You only have to look at football and transfer windows and money being spent is what gets people excited more than ever.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    I'm starting to think that way.

    I don't want a Prem academy where the main aim is profiteering. I would rather shut it down.
    So you'd shut down something that's turning a profit?


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Forest's academy and they way they've used it has been the only consistently good thing about the club for 15 years. Heading away from that and relying on doing everything else well, would be a huge red flag.

    We should strive to be better elsewhere, but not at the expense of the only good thing we have going.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    It's like the optimism of pre-season was cut loose on the 4th August and let float off like an helium-filled ballon.

    Get a grip FFS.

    We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs - Giuseppe Garibaldi

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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    I said a week or so ago Karanka has a duty to protect the future of the club by looking after these academy graduates and giving them a potential route to the first team or selling them when their stock is at its highest (if it doesn't weaken the side e.g. I think it would've been too risky to sell Worrall in January despite his stock being high, we weren't to know how good Fig would be). He also has to do all he can to keep his job and if that means signing what he considers better and more experienced players to play in front of the academy lads then so be it.

    It's a balancing act and the scales have probably been tipped towards the academy lads for 3 or 4 seasons now and as a result I think too much pressure has been laid on a few of them, yes it's fantastic to see Worrall, Brereton, Appiah etc play for England but it doesn't help Forest get promoted.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by LostThatLovingFeeling View Post
    So you'd shut down something that's turning a profit?
    It's just personal feeling. Ater all football is a passion.

    Of course it isn't the right thing to do. You keep it going quietly in the back ground.

    But I watch Man City academy (lets hope Foden can do it) - they sign and produce the best talent but how many no matter how good they are (I'm talking maybe 2nd or 3rd best) really have a chance.

    I guess I am saying I am old fashioned in wanting my club to produce players for itself but realistically the higher you go like the Prem the less likely it is going to happen.


  12. #11
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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Training players


  13. #12
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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReDias View Post
    It's like the optimism of pre-season was cut loose on the 4th August and let float off like an helium-filled ballon.

    Get a grip FFS.


    Everything is positive at the moment and certainly hasn't been this good for a long time.

    Just being realistic about this side of the club now.


  14. #13

    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    It's for Billy to wreck! Mhawahahahahahh!!!!

    “All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.”

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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanRoy View Post
    It's just personal feeling. Ater all football is a passion.

    Of course it isn't the right thing to do. You keep it going quietly in the back ground.

    But I watch Man City academy (lets hope Foden can do it) - they sign and produce the best talent but how many no matter how good they are (I'm talking maybe 2nd or 3rd best) really have a chance.

    I guess I am saying I am old fashioned in wanting my club to produce players for itself but realistically the higher you go like the Prem the less likely it is going to happen.
    I agree with some of your points. I'd be massively in favour of a rule forcing teams to use their academy products but unfortunately that rule doesn't exist and it wont while Sky rule the Premier League, they want the Brazilian or Spanish wonderkids coming over here and Premier League teams are happy to oblige and it'll continue to trickle down into the Championship as well.


  16. #15

    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    How many of the England squad play for the academy they came through?

    I think what people want is a fanciful dream. We all want a core of Forest academy lads.

    Not football though sadly. Unless we all move to Gresty Road instead.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    There have been times, in the past, when academy graduates have been thrust into the first team picture who were simply not ready for it.

    There is still a route into the first team squad, in spite of what some might think, and Yates is the proof that if you work hard and keep improving, the door is not shut. I'm sure the players that we do get come through now will not only be mentally more ready for the rigours of first team football, but will also come through with a top-notch attitude and ability to boot.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    How many of the England squad play for the academy they came through?

    .
    that's not a good way of looking at it. What people want is what the England squad is. Delph playing regularly for Leeds before moving on, Leeds fans take pride in it. Same with us and Jenas. Players will always move on when they're presented with bigger opportunities, but you don't want players moving on because they're being pushed out the door.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    The academy does what it needs to do. It's little more than a stock breeding unit.

    It trains local talented footballers in the hope that we develop them into potential players with some value that can be exploited by our club, either directly as players or by virtue of selling them on.

    The hope is to have a higher concentration of blue-ribbon stock. But beyond offering them all your best care and nurturing, there isn't anything you can do to guarantee that.

    It's not essential to the club's future, but it does come in handy when times are hard.

    I'd keep as an insurance policy.


  20. #19
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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRSG View Post
    that's not a good way of looking at it. What people want is what the England squad is. Delph playing regularly for Leeds before moving on, Leeds fans take pride in it. Same with us and Jenas. Players will always move on when they're presented with bigger opportunities, but you don't want players moving on because they're being pushed out the door.
    Jamaal Lascelles is perhaps a better recent example for Forest.

    I still take pride when I see him playing in the Premier League as I remember watching him in the youth sides and championed him on here when he’d not made a squad.

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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Stone's Mullet View Post
    How many of the England squad play for the academy they came through?

    I think what people want is a fanciful dream. We all want a core of Forest academy lads.

    Not football though sadly. Unless we all move to Gresty Road instead.
    Rashford and Kane for 2, a few came through lower league academies such as Maguire and Young and moved up the leagues then you have the wild card like Vardy.

    Are Figgy or Heff really superior players to Worrall?
    Will Watson contribute more than Yate?
    Murphy or Brereton?
    Was Steele really a necessary signing?

    All opportunities to bring a player through from the academy and increase their value if that's how you want to view it without weakening the overall playing squad.

    I don't see the attraction in supporting Forest, it has always been Nottingham Forest to me and for that to mean anything it needs some local lads in the team.


  22. #21
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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    If your academy produces players worthy of either getting in the team or being sold to make a profit you can't really complain can you?


  23. #22

    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes' Organ View Post
    Rashford and Kane for 2, a few came through lower league academies such as Maguire and Young and moved up the leagues then you have the wild card like Vardy.

    Are Figgy or Heff really superior players to Worrall?
    Will Watson contribute more than Yate?
    Murphy or Brereton?
    Was Steele really a necessary signing?

    All opportunities to bring a player through from the academy and increase their value if that's how you want to view it without weakening the overall playing squad.

    I don't see the attraction in supporting Forest, it has always been Nottingham Forest to me and for that to mean anything it needs some local lads in the team.
    Tw of very few teams who don't get picked off.

    Id say Toby is ahead of Worrall. Can't comment on Hefele. But I'd rather Worrall get a loan than sit on the bench. Likewise Yates.

    Jordan Smith isn't good enough and if playing will cost us points. Steele was important.

    I think your ideal of football is unfortunately so far away from the modern game, as is society and footballers. Most these young lads would jump ship the minute a top club had a sniff. I'm sure Sheff Utd fans like saying Maguire is a blade, but I bet it fucking burns deeper than he's actually a bin dipper now.

    I want what you want Wes, and what Bryan wants. I just recognise it is not possible in today's game. Not unless you forgo success on the pitch, which will kill the club in the long term anyway. So I'm just realistic.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    The academy costs what, £2.5m a year to run?

    And in recent years we've sold Darlow, Lascelles, Burke for £20m combined. That's 8 years of academy run paid for, and in that time frame we've also got the likes of Brereton, Cash, Yates and the bunch below them.

    As it currently stands, the academy is neither for profiteering or to fill out the Forest squad, it's simply a free bet to see if we get one or two really good players.

    Karanka Mutineer

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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    When there is such 'short termism' with regards to the manager, do you blame him if the last thing on his mind is developing youth players. Being a manager is all about self preservation.


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    Default Re: What is the Academy for?

    To produce players to supplement the first team squad and/or make money for the club. It doesn’t need to produce a squad player or bring money in every single season, but as a minimum it needs to be self sustaining. As others have said, our academy does a very good job in fulfilling its purpose on both counts.

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