Barry
Where's me hammer?
The actions of one group caused the other group to react in one way which allowed the other to react in the way they did.
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Hillsborough could forest fans have done more?
- Thread starter Harry1982
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bullittboy
Guest
You are exactly right Alex and I am not trying to remove their actions from the chain of events. However, as has been stated earlier in the thread at the previous years semi-final there had been a perimeter fence around the outside of the ground in anticipation of ticketless/pissed fans which was not applied on that fateful day.
I couldn't agree more that Liverpool "fans" created the incident, however it was SYP duty of care to ensure that it didn't happen. They got it right the year before and therefore should have had the planning in place to ensure that it didn't happen then.
I too was there on that day and witnessed drunken Liverpool supporters attacking Forset fans in Hillsborough town hours before the match. They had a fearsome reputation back then which SYP appeared to have overlooked.
Unfortunately, in the society that we now live in it is always easier to blame someone else than to look at our own wrong doings and for me there will always be blood on the hands of some Liverpool supporters.
Ultimately though, SYP got it wrong. Appointing an inexperienced match day commander, removing the perimeter fencing outside the ground that had worked effectively the year before, opening the outside gates without officers inside the ground to direct supporters away from the central Leppings Lane pens and I am sure other measures that I cannot imagine. It was their resposibility to ensure the safety of the public. They should have anticipated the problems that could and did occur.
I have tried to bury the images from that day in the recesses of my mind and this thread has brought a lot of pain from that day back. We live in a blame culture now and it is easier to blame a public body than to blame individual supporters or groups of supporters.
As a football analogy of who was culpable that day I'll call it a score draw Liverpool 3 SYP 3.
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no you're wrong....it was forest fans fault for spitting ! (allegedly)
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bullittboy
Guest
I watched the documentary on the Bradford fire earlier and although both incidents have no relation whatsoever i do find it interesting that Bradford is almost forgotten whilst Hillsborough is still front page news. Families of the victims at Bradford could still be going through the courts now (both the club for the state of that stand and their evacuation measures and the police for poor enforcement). However the city and club have dealt with it all in a very dignified way.
You are course correct, SYP, obviously failed in that duty of care, as did the scousers in what we may call civic duty, or similar.
Knowingly having a large section of fans who cannot behave in an acceptable manner, it's the fault of the SYP for not controlling them, rather than the fault of a large section of Liverpool fans for the devestation created as a direct result of the fans actions.
Simply you know we cannot behave, you should have stopped us misbehaving.
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IanStoreyMoore
Viv Anderson
"I couldn't agree more that Liverpool "fans" created the incident, however it was SYP duty of care to ensure that it didn't happen. They got it right the year before and therefore should have had the planning in place to ensure that it didn't happen then."
There were only two things that "created" the incident:-
1. SYP and whoever else was responsible for ground safety failed to shut off entrance to the tunnel through which fans had to travel to get into the middle two pens. This should have been done at least an hour before ko time as the central pens were virtually full by 2pm
2. The FA failed in their duty of care too as they allowed a game to go ahead in a stadium that had NO safety certificate.
Criminal negligence if ever there was any and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference what state of inebriation a person was in once they were in the condemned pens. Life or Death in there became a lottery.
There were only two things that "created" the incident:-
1. SYP and whoever else was responsible for ground safety failed to shut off entrance to the tunnel through which fans had to travel to get into the middle two pens. This should have been done at least an hour before ko time as the central pens were virtually full by 2pm
2. The FA failed in their duty of care too as they allowed a game to go ahead in a stadium that had NO safety certificate.
Criminal negligence if ever there was any and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference what state of inebriation a person was in once they were in the condemned pens. Life or Death in there became a lottery.
MaxiRobriguez
Bob McKinlay
It would be interesting to know if the outcome would have been any different had the SYP done what is widely suggested they should have done by media, fans and politicians alike. Would the Liverpool fans have accepted further delays in accessing the ground after the game had kicked off?
I look at the scenes outside the ground and think if the central pens were closed and the police tried to control entrance to the sides then the crush simply would have happened outside rather than in.
There were mistakes made sure, but the outcome was decided well before 3PM, and the SYP should harbour an equal amount of blame with hooligan culture, poor stadium design, poor stadium selection etc. Not one element was solely to blame.
I look at the scenes outside the ground and think if the central pens were closed and the police tried to control entrance to the sides then the crush simply would have happened outside rather than in.
There were mistakes made sure, but the outcome was decided well before 3PM, and the SYP should harbour an equal amount of blame with hooligan culture, poor stadium design, poor stadium selection etc. Not one element was solely to blame.
Trentsider
First Team Squad
I was at the game and offered my services to two police constables explaining i was an off duty firefighter qualified in first aid including CPR.. I was told to " stand where I was and keep my f****ing mouth shut". This was very early on in the incident. They also refused to let me re enter the kop even though I explained that I had left my wife unaccompanied and that she would start to worry if I didn't return. I was there about ten minutes before they started to bully another Forest fan and I slipped back into the crowd whilst they weren't looking.
thehockleyhustler
Stuart Pearce
Just been speaking with a guy in the office involved in the Justice for Hillsborough campaign. I've had to bite my tongue in interests of office atmopshere but yep it's everyone else's fault.
Senior Flange Technician
Andy!
f*** the office atmosphere. It's treading on egg shells that have led to this Liverpool hysteria.
thehockleyhustler
Stuart Pearce
I dipped my toes in by suggesting the blame was shared and they shouldn't point finger solely at the authorities.
Safe to say he didn't agree. Apparently Liverpool fans always turned up without tickets so the police should have expected it...
Safe to say he didn't agree. Apparently Liverpool fans always turned up without tickets so the police should have expected it...
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This is what always gets me.
They are almost proud of their tradition of "bunking in", that is, turning up without tickets and forcing their way into a stadium.
And they somehow cannot see anything wrong with that.
Alexandro Garibaldi
Bang Bang
The trouble with Hillsborough is the tribalism of football and the semantics used in describing those involved. This thread's title is an example. "Could Forest fans have done more?" Well I was only six when it happened and a hundred or so miles away, but for some reason that question tugs at me somewhere, as if I'm being personally slandered. Did we, as Forest fans, act the way we should have done that day? It's not a question you can possibly answer because most of us were not involved. "Could the people in the Kop end have done more?" is the question that should be asked. If you bring our shared club affiliations into it, none of us can answer it fairly because none of us is going to indict ourselves like that, whether we were in a position to do more or not.
It's the same with what happened at the other end of the ground. If you describe the events as "Several thousand people tried to get into the ground without tickets; 96 people already in the ground died and hundred more were hurt in the crush" it's fairly obvious where the blame lies, but as soon as you use the words "Liverpool fans" then not only does club bias start to come into it but also you're then describing both the ticketless people and those killed. It's a paradox where "Liverpool fans" are both the culprit and the victim, despite being a single entity. Nevertheless, coverage will continue to ask the question "Were Liverpool fans to blame for Hillsborough?" and anyone who describes themselves as a Liverpool fan will resist the accusation against them. You might as well ask "Was the human race to blame for Hillsborough?" Clearly a portion of it was, but most members of the human race are rightly going to vehemently deny any responsibility or guilt.
It's the same with what happened at the other end of the ground. If you describe the events as "Several thousand people tried to get into the ground without tickets; 96 people already in the ground died and hundred more were hurt in the crush" it's fairly obvious where the blame lies, but as soon as you use the words "Liverpool fans" then not only does club bias start to come into it but also you're then describing both the ticketless people and those killed. It's a paradox where "Liverpool fans" are both the culprit and the victim, despite being a single entity. Nevertheless, coverage will continue to ask the question "Were Liverpool fans to blame for Hillsborough?" and anyone who describes themselves as a Liverpool fan will resist the accusation against them. You might as well ask "Was the human race to blame for Hillsborough?" Clearly a portion of it was, but most members of the human race are rightly going to vehemently deny any responsibility or guilt.
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Wes' Organ
Biggles
Scousers, human race?
Bryn Gunn
Cash is King!
:facepalm:
Barry
Where's me hammer?
I told one once what i witnessed on the day, somebody who i genuinely liked and got on with..... He told me that me my auntie dad and both uncles "must have imagined what we saw as thats not what the governments finally admitted now"....lost a load of respect for him that day.
rogerthecat
Jack Burkitt
That's exactly the view of an otherwise decent bloke that I've known nearly 30 years. He was on the same programming team as me in 1989 and went to the match with his dad.
There's always been loads of banter between a load of us, Scousers, Forest, Leeds, Arsenal, Geordies and both shades of Manc. Yet this is the one mental block that he has - Scousers bunked in, everyone knew it and if they failed to deal with it then the consequences were everyone else's fault.
To be fair, they have a point with that argument, insane as it may seem to many of us.
The year before the authorities did deal with the ticket-less mob that came down from Liverpool. For some reason, they took a different approach to that fateful day, wheras the fans didn't, and as a result 96 innocent people died.
The question maybe, should not be 'why did the authorities fail to deal with the ticketless fans?' but 'Why was there an accepted culture among some football fans that turning up without a ticket and forcing entry was a perfectly normal and reasonable action?'
thehockleyhustler
Stuart Pearce
It was nothing to do with the fans apparently so if it were Forest in that end we would have seen the same number of casualties.
Senior Flange Technician
Andy!
I'm just going to twat my GF, I'm innocent though, because she knows what I'm like and should stop me.
Absolutely ridiculous excuse except if it's about scousers at Hillsborough.
Absolutely ridiculous excuse except if it's about scousers at Hillsborough.
Give her a heads up and if she doesn't duck in time then it's her fault, m'lud.
Just googled....bunking in Liverpool...seems that it is still a common practice. One fan describes it as a lark. Wouldn't imagine it was unique to Liverpool though. Many say it was the SYC fault (which to a degree I agree) a nd that it has has been proven that that end of the ground was only marginally over capacity. (How many more were still outside still trying to get in ?) if you were a Liverpool fan who gained entrance without a ticket on that fateful day would you be brave enough to admit it....I wouldn't !
Barry
Where's me hammer?
Its the thing thats always got me..... People must know of other people if it be brothers, mates, dads teammates etc who had said before the day of the game that they were bunking in...... So youd know
Senior Flange Technician
Andy!
They openly talk about doing it on their forums but, like in this thread (http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php?topic=16509.0) mention Hillsborough and it definitely had nothing to do with it.
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